I found this post on another website, BaylorFans, and thought it was relevant to this blog. Unfortunately, I could not contact the original author. Hope you find it as interesting as I did.
Background
I attended ACC from its inception until a couple of years ago. Before that, I attended Highland for many years. I was about as involved as humanly possible--and I loved Jesus passionately with all my heart for a long, long time there. Loved worshiping, spent time with Jesus daily, and sought the Lord about almost everything. I've held personal relationships with so many at ACC and to this day love them very much, though they have for the most part cut off communication with me (and I don't know why that is, honestly).
My Experience
Something about the hundreds of discipleship/mentoring meetings and the psychological layers behind most teachings eventually left me in a hole. This happened very gradually, after many years of involvement. It's as if you feel you can't disagree with what is said, because it is very much Biblical and seems as though the Holy Spirit enfuels it. Even so, you find yourself losing your identity for some reason and feel overwhelmed by everything about your relationship with God. You feel so loved and connected to everyone because of the community, yet you aren't fulfilled. It's a double bind.
Reading this you will think of things like--'it's all about Jesus'. 'He is enough.' 'Churches don't hurt you, people do.' 'When all else gets confusing and overwhelming, turn to Jesus.' Right. All of these statements are reinforced in you over and over through sermons. They're true, too. Jesus is enough. But this is what I have found, after moving away and starting my life over: You are a person of many components--body, mind, spirit, soul. Jesus is everywhere. Of course, if you are an ACC member, you believe that in theory, but are very dependent on the friendships and discipleship relationships you've developed at ACC and therefore feel sort of lost apart from ACC.
I believe that the way of following Jesus taught at ACC and other places similar (i.e. Metro Christian Fellowship in KC) is toxic. I was extremely screwed up emotionally, mentally, and psychologically because of my extreme involvement with the two churches. Yes, you can hear the Lord and follow what He says. Yes, that pleases Him. But you must also know that you are a person with a will, and that is also holy. He gave it to you, and you are in fact an individual. A nameless faceless generation is not what he intended at all. He intended you to be you. God loves you for you, not for what you give to him in the way of time spent with him, prayer, or fasting, or anything.
If you, like me, one day find yourself feeling depressed and overwhelmed and eventually find it necessary to leave ACC, please feel free to contact me. It's a hard process of re-wiring your brain to think independently and is very painful. I don't suggest going it alone. Find a friend who will listen. You will need all the support you can get.
Peace.
ResplendentPrism
ps...this may not make sense to you now. It takes years of immersion sometimes for one to get to the point I got to, and I know many other former leaders that have had similar experiences. I hope you don't have to go through what we did.
I couldn't find a better way to get in touch with you, but I just wanted to say thank you for starting this blog and drawing attention to what I believe is a very dangerous force in Waco. The behavior of ACC is eerily similar to that of a cult and we need to be cautious of it. It's great to hear stories from someone who actually lived through it.
ReplyDeleteAgain, thank you. I hope you continue making posts.
To me anyway, ACC was no less a cult than the church it came from. I was picked up by this "church" after a hard time in my life, and I was starting a new life. I was overwhelmed with gratitude for the warm embrace, and made many friends very fast. It was during my UMHB welcome week. I had been vulnerable with my personal experiences, in hind sight, naive. I had no idea that what I shared with these people would eventually be used against me. But it was... Two times, I was told by someone who was interested in getting to know me, one being my husband now, they were advised that I was "emotionally unstable and a bad influence to be around" by a life group leader. I knew for certain the name of the person who told my husband they shouldn't pursue me because I was divorced, but that leader knew how devoted I had been for God when going to this "church". I had come from an abusive previous marriage, unknowingly into an abusive "church". If anyone wants to say that I'm wrong for calling this cult out for what it is, more power to you, for now. I pray that this "church" wakes up and stops harming people who have opened their heart, soul, and mind to your abusive leadership. You gain people's trust, you then crush these people when they begin to have questions. Wake up and change your ways! Be transformed by God's Truth, not your own version of it. I am leaving this here in hope that anyone else who has questions or has been spiritually damaged by you will know the true message and love of God.
DeleteY'know, the thought just occurred to me tonight, as someone from Antioch reached out to me:
DeleteRemember how Antioch has promoted Dr. Neil Anderson's / Freedom in Christ Ministries' Steps to Freedom in Christ?
I've found the Steps listed among the resources on numerous Antioch Movement congregational websites.
What's my point?
Both Antioch and the Steps I think misinterpret Galatians 5:1 big-time - frankly, I dare say in a spiritually-abusive manner.
In my experience, they teach that Galatians 5:1 is about us overcoming our personal sins.
But, if you read the epistle / letter to the Galatian congregation, you would find that the bondage the Galatian believers were falling into was due to the addition of a legalistic false teaching of circumcision being required for salvation.
The ones promoting this doctrine had basically taken over the local congregation. These types were promoting themselves and working to lord it over the flock.
You see, the original context of Galatians 5:1, as I understand it, actually doesn't have much to do with addressing personal sin.
True, we should seek to honor the Lord and not deliberately sin, and Paul addresses this in the epistle / letter; but the main issue in the Galatian church was spiritual abuse.
So, it seems to me that Galatians 5:1 is actually primarily about standing up to false teaching and those promoting it.
Food for thought, given some of our backgrounds with Antioch. ; )
Oh, and I might be wrong about the Greek, but I think that the only time the expresssion "stop the mouth" (i.e., "forcefully silence" is used in the Scriptures, is in the context of directing church leaders to forcefully silence the circumcision group - presumably due to how disruptive / divisive and harmful their legalistic doctrine was in the early church.
DeleteBut, if you're more familiar with the original / extant early texts, please feel free to correct me on this if I am wrong. If I am right, confirmation would be nice, too. Thanks. = )
Missing a parenthesis after "forcefully silence". My bad.
DeleteOn the "Nameless, Faceless Generation" issue: that was on Antioch's World Mandate 2002 worship album - the compact disc and its case / sleeve. I know, because I was there and have a copy. Ask around: you might find that I'm telling the truth.
DeleteIt is recognized as a phrase linked to the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) movement. I am told that it has been promoted by Louie Giglio of the Passion Movement but likely originated from Paul Cain's Stadium Prophecy.
Paul Cain became a disgraced false prophet for multiple reasons. He had a shared history with Bob Jones and Mike Bickle, connected to the "Prophetic History" of the International House of Prayer, Kansas City, MO (IHOP-KC) and the Kansas City Prophets, I think.
Pardon the bunny trail - Lord willing, I'll address the "nameless, faceless" issue toward the end - but here is some background on Cain, Bickle and the “Prophetic History” connected to IHOP-KC:
Around 2015, when I read a transcript of Bickle's / IHOP-KC's "Prophetic History", I was floored by some of the stuff Bickle was recorded as having said.
DeleteA SPIRIT NAMED “DOMINUS”
First, as I recall, there was some spirit named "Dominus" not clearly and plainly identifying as being Christ or the Holy Spirit - and thus, in my opinion, was probably not actually from the Lord, even though Bickle claimed otherwise. As I recall, I think “Dominus” approached / revealed itself to Bickle.
PAUL CAIN’S EARTHQUAKE PROPHECY
DeleteAs I recall in the document, I believe that Paul Cain allegedly let Vineyard founder John Wimber actually pick the date an earthquake / natural disaster would occur, to prove his alleged authority as a Christian prophet - even as I think other sources allege that Cain did NOT contact authorities to help people evacuate in time to save themselves.
The earthquake occurred I think in Central Asia - a part of the Soviet Union at the time, as I recall. Unless I am mistaken, I found it recorded on a USGS (United States Geological Survey) website among historical international occurrences of earthquakes.
I don't think Cain or anyone else warned the people, or gave them a chance to repent of their sins and turn to Christ. My understanding is that I think even some media sources may have claimed that Cain just let them perish, even though he believed it would occur; but also problematic was the alleged picking of the date - the implication being that these Christian leaders could have cried out to the Lord to have mercy on the people and spare them, but it seems that they didn't - as if they didn't care!
How is that like Christ?!
SUBDUING OPPONENTS, RATHER THAN USING SCRIPTURE AND KINDNESS
DeleteRegarding Bickle, as I recall, I think he claimed that he himself was able to unleash some manifestation on I think church leaders opposed to / concerned about the Toronto Blessing / "Holy Laughter" Movement in the UK, with the result being manifestations that were allegedly kinda chaotic and / or somewhat violent, but worked to seemingly kinda forcefully subdue Bickle's opponents, rather than rely on godly wisdom, Scriptural discernment and Christian love, patience, kindness, gentleness and self-control (see Galatians 5:22-23).
CONCERNS RELATED TO DOCUMENTATION ON MIKEBICKLE.ORG
DeleteI read the bulk of this right in the Prophetic History transcript from mikebickle.org It was in a "Prophetic History" transcript PDF I downloaded from the site around 2015.
Honestly, I was shocked to find Bickle allegedly promoting this garbage.
Most of the rest of the stuff I found on the site seemed kinda normal.
Every once in a while, I would come across some teaching that might be problematic - and sometimes I came across evidence suggestive of possibly updating / tampering with files by Bickle's staff, and interestingly, sometimes missing transcripts - usually in relation to more controversial teachings....
I am not the first person to notice this. That's part of the reason why it's been so difficult to check the claims of the old 1990 Ernest Gruen report on aberrant practices linked to the Kansas City Prophets. (Bickle was included in that group, as was Cain, I think.)
CONCERNS RELATED TO A CLAIM ON IHOP-KC’S WEBSITE
DeleteI likewise saw that IHOP was claiming that the late Rev. Ernest Gruen had reconciled with Mike Bickle before Rev. Gruen's death. While this may be true on a personal level, there is some evidence suggestive that Gruen for the most part did not recant his report, so the statement came across to me as somewhat misleading on behalf of IHOP-KC (my opinion).
Ok, I'm reading on a discernment website that the location of the earthquake was Armenia, and that it related to Paul Cain arriving and leaving I think Anaheim, CA. All right. It's been a few years since I've read the document. Admittedly, I am going on memory; but the file should be around here somewhere....
DeleteDarn, the blog the Grey Coats used to have information on Rev. Gruen.... looks like the blog is gone now, even on Internet Archive's Wayback Machine. Dang.
But the claims in Gruen's report were always difficult for us outsiders to prove, anyway. But, if I can find that PDF.... that could be a different story....
And no, I am not aware of any relation to the late Rev. Gruen. I do find it ironic, though, that Bickle has had a reputation of being into eschatology (end times theology), even as Gruen has historically been a name associated with a German-American watchmaker. As in, pocket watches / wristwatches...
PAUL CAIN’S “NAMELESS, FACELESS GENERATION”
DeleteAnyway, the problem with the phrase “nameless, faceless generation” is that in the Bible, it's actually a curse. So, when we promote that mentality, we're cursing ourselves.
So, what Resplendent Prism mentions above? That attitude was subtly a part of the problem.
We thought, "The Lord should be the one to receive the glory," and that is good and right; but God created us as individuals, as Resplendent Prism points out.
When you have no name and no face, it's as if you don't exist - or run the risk of becoming enmeshed in an entity that does have a name, like Antioch or IHOP-KC - or, we might dangerously, arrogantly and erroneously forget that we and Jesus are separate entities. That might sound crazy at first; but those lines started to blur at Antioch.
This is all very unhealthy - and the danger of this mentality creeps in VERY subtly - so much so, that many people have not discerned this error, even though it is recorded quite plainly in the Scriptures.
So, Resplendent Prism is pretty much spot-on.
Yes, thanks. Takes courage and you are not alone. There are lots of is out there. So identify with the ostracism experience when questioning or choosing to leave. It was a hard thing to do, but ten years later I know it was the best thing for me. Keep writing.
ReplyDeleteBut if it was a cult, why would they allow so many people to visit? My understanding is that most cults are rather secretive and don't allow just anybody to stop by and check it out. So maybe it's not a cult but more likely, maybe it's just not the right place for you.
ReplyDeleteThis can be tricky to see. Look for "layers," where the outermost circle (guests) have little information, and there is an inner circle that is in the know. -- AnonymousMom
DeleteReally, people need to do a little homework on what defines the word "cult." It's a real word - it means a specific thing. There's a lot of very good resource on the internet. Easy to find out. Nothing wrong with having a look.
DeleteOther words: thought reform; coercive group; aberrant religious group; controlling, and so on.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteActually, cults often like to recruit people, particularly folks who would provide some benefit to the group. But you don't need to take my word for it: you can read books like "Cults in Our Midst" by Dr. Margaret Singer, and "Combating Cult Mind Control", by Steven Hassan, among others. You might likewise find useful information from cult information and education groups. A lot of this information is available for free online.
DeleteThe Anon who referred to "layers" is right: among other things, it's about information control. Outsiders are given either no information, or predominantly positive information on the group; new members are given some information; veteran members will have access to more; and the leader(s) will have access to all the doctrines and practices.
Now, while leaders will know the doctrines and practices, they may not know about abuses by lower ranks within their group. The reason for this is because cults do tend to develop and enforce fairly strict ranks in authority, typically by means of some form of deception (i.e., information control).
The longer you stay in a cult, the more likely you are to eventually come across its dark side, even if it takes a long time to truly discern, witness and / or experience it.
Some cults have amazing PR fronts, and they can sometimes be extremely powerful and wealthy.
Now, as I say all this, I would likewise point out: cults also do provide some benefits. They can teach members skills that they did not have before. Cults exist because they are filling an unmet societal need, even if the need is simply for a sense of community. Cults also like to take up a specific cause. For this reason, they often appeal to altruistic people who sincerely desire to make the world a better place.
Most folks who talk about cults don't bother to take the time to try to understand what they are and their pros and cons. I place a high value on personal liberty and free thinking, so those are ways that cults can make me feel controlled; but because I appreciate having a sense of community, I can understand why people would join a cult.
And when people join cults -- or if they find themselves unable to leave -- it is usually connected to deception. Most people don't know until after the fact that they've joined a cult.
DeleteI just saw the date on your suggested books but I should check those out! :) I have been reading Feelings Buried Alive Never Die, and it's very insightful in my experience reading it. Everyone is different in how they process things and heal. I am just at a place where I can find the good that comes out of a very bad experience and hope for other people to see that is possible. Not easy, nor quick, but possible depending on each person's life and how they process. Many blessings for everyone here, and I pray for religious organizations like Antioch to see the light.
DeleteUm. I have been in a REAL "Christian" cult for 15 years, when I was younger. They were called the "children of god". I left, with very serious trauma to my entire family. Now I have been a member of a local Baptist church for over 10 years and the lack of spiritual investment on contrarily as bad. I am empty. My wife and I found the Antioch church online and were about to visit. It wouldn't take me long to tell what's going on if this is truly the case. If there are so many people worshipping and loving the Lord for so long, and no major falicies against the scripture, I would say that they are not truly a "cult" per say. why? Because they ask for people to be committed to Christ? They ask for more time, more heart, more of His Spirit in service to Him? They ask for more than just going to church? Then, when you don't want to commit as much as the others, you quite, feel guilty, and then call them a cult? I don't think that is enough. In the children of god they started believing that sex was of God and people started sharing their wives with sould to win the lost. It was terribly misguided and they started doing much worse. These things were contrary to the Bible. So what is Antioch church doing that is cintrary? Probably nothing. I agree, however, that a person should be able to worship there and also have the free will, as you say, be an individual and not be frowned upon and excamunnicated because you simply chose not to do a particular task or don't go along with every thing they do. One should not feel condemnation for having a "personal" relationship with Christ. However, I think it's probably misguided and over zealous individuals that may have caused you pain, since they never contacted you? There may also be jealousy involved, which I have found so prevailant in our churches in America because we have made such a big deal of all of the "glory" individuals who so great things for Christ. They get TV shows and records, etc and run off to Nashville or California. It's sickening. So you may have been a subject of the personality cult. Anyway, God bless you in your endeavors.
ReplyDeleteWell, Anon, I think the issue with Antioch is one of stuff like, did thought reform occur at Antioch? How does Antioch stack up against Steven Hassan's BITE Model? Stuff like that -- actual criteria developed by social psychologists to measure the level of concern -- to help us decide whether or not a group is a cult or high-control group, for example.
DeleteBut frankly, even when a group is not a cult, a group can still be unhealthy and even have some cultish tendencies.
With Antioch, it was not just about immature leaders. It was that those of us harmed by immature leaders were not really allowed to speak up and get those problems rectified.
For example, in my case, the church believed my abusive leader rather than me. For more than a decade now, some of their people and / or defenders have been accusing me of sin, demonization and mental instability, even though I would argue that that is not exactly an accurate portrayal of me.
I have been more vocal publicly than most others, and that has definitely taken its toll on me. It was extremely difficult facing the onslaught of backlash day in and day out, even as I desperately sought healing. Those who were accusing me for the most part were most likely not facing nearly the amount of negativity I had to navigate constantly -- and they often had the church community to support them.
Meanwhile, I had almost no support. Many days, all I had were the Lord and some secular entertainment to get my mind off the toxicity I was dealing with, predominantly from Evangelical Christians.
Many days of my healing process were brutal. But, in the end, perhaps that toxicity was exactly what I needed to help me heal: because it forced me to try to navigate difficult theology and heated arguments, such that hopefully I've been starting to build up a little resilience over time. It can be really tough, though -- and take a long time.
But anyway, getting back to general concerns related to Antioch: quite often in my experience and observations, when we recognized what we truly believed to be legitimate concerns, we were silenced, deprived of ministry opportunities, subjected to deliverance ministries, gossiped about / subjected to ad hominem attacks, shunned, excommunicated. Stuff like that. It was a lot less healthy than anything I had seen in a church before or have seen since. This is why we've been concerned. Frankly, calling it a cult or not is actually irrelevant. The real problem is that some people get seriously hurt due to no real fault of their own.
Thanks for posting. My daughter is actively involved there now but I have not seen in her the things that you described as happening to you but I DO get your point. It is well spoken. Keep posting as the Spirit leads you.
ReplyDeleteBlessings in Him.
a concerned mom
I have two sons who go there. I would like to get them out but I don't know how.
ReplyDeleteHere is some help for that: http://icsahome.com/infoserv_respond/faq_howgetkidout.asp?Subject=How+can+I+get+my+kid+out+of+a+cult%3F#More
Delete--from AnonymousMom
I have a son there now I'd like to get out, we're you successful?
DeleteAlthough I am not an ACC fan and I do not appreciate attitudes from the group, I can honestly that is completely untrue to portray them as a cult. They are a church well organized with a vision. If one does not agree then is simply free to leave. It is not necessary to write slander such as labeled them "Toxic". No church is without issues as we are all people and people are not perfect.
ReplyDeleteACC has its issues. A person that is weakly minded and already with emotional imbalances can have a negative experience as they put the focus of their personal fulfillment in the group rather than their relationship with God. This BLOG's author leaves completely out of the equation called "Personal Responsibility".
ACC does not imposes upon the will of the church goer, they attend and participate out of their own volition. So then why dog them? If you do not like then just leave. I am most certain that eventually you would get to the root of the problem and is not ACC or that church in Kansas but your own failure at taking responsibility and expecting to get all your emotional needs from people. Church is a place my friend, to seek God not people.
Take care! BTW - I make it clear that I am no fan or ACC, I do not attend, I have not attended and hopefully I will never attend. JR (Waco, Texas)
The definition of a cult is twofold: 1.False beliefs, or 2.Cult methods. A group can have just one, or can have both. Here is a good resource: http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/uploads/CultCharacteristics.htm#American%20Family%20Foundation
DeleteExcellent point. I have not found outright biblical fallacy in Antioch's teaching (I am mom to a member) but I do find unhealthy, controlling methods among those who get deeper involved with the missions program.
DeleteMy daughter attends A&M and was living with another student and her mother. She met the girl in one of her classes and they were great study partners, so they decided to become housemates. This meant sharing with her and her mom. The dad was out of town on a work contract. Everything seemed okay. They introduced her to ACC. She has always had access to church growing up and attended several Baptist group activities such as Awanas for several years, but I admit we did not attend church as a family. We did however, encourage a healthy involvement to both children and transported them to all activities. We are not atheists or anything, just not church proactive. We believe in God and Jesus Christ and have made our beliefs clear to our children. That is why I was not very alarmed about her new interest in going to church since attending A&M and living with this family. After about a year,they abruptly asked her to move out. I don't think she followed some of their beliefs about life in general. They also "bad-mouthed" our family, and she did not like that, although some of their comments may have been true. They questioned our parenting, our personal behavior, etc. She did move out, thank goodness. The more that i have heard about this mother, the happier i am that she is not living with them. She is still friends with the daughter. I just found a church program from 4-6-14 in her car while she is visiting. This means she is still attending church with them. She also seems to still have close ties with the family also. After the first few times she spoke of the church and the church trips they would take, I had that "sneaky red flag" mother's get, but didn't ask any questions. It has been over a year now, and the flag is still flying, and finding this program with such a recent date, prompted a little research. My daughter is very independent, but at the same time very gullible when she is under the influence of people she thinks are "better" than us, due to their clean living and God fearing living. I cannot really talk to her about this without her finding me to be judgementle, but I will follow up and out as much as i can before I let her get this far in life, and not be aware of what she is getting into. So glad i have found information about this church.
DeleteI guess you don't know much about coercive persuasion, do you, JR?
DeleteAs for personal responsibility, granted: maybe in retrospect I should have stayed in my home state of Virginia and attended Virginia Tech, so that I could have focused more on my studies; but, from a religious perspective, I was also doing some soul searching. That's what led me to Baylor instead of Virginia Tech, because I got into both.
Should I have done the personal responsibility thing and just pretty much let my faith atrophy? I could have. I just wanted to try to make my faith work. I'm sorry that that may have adversely affected your view of my sense of personal responsibility.
I had had mostly positive experiences in my faith up to the time I joined Antioch. I just needed some encouragement -- and some questions answered.
I ended up at ACC because folks there made me feel welcomed, but also deceived me about ACC's beliefs and practices. I was from Virginia and was a Mainline Protestant -- not a Texan or Evangelical -- so I was living cross-culturally, which meant that I was dealing with a learning curve, unlike my Texan Evangelical peers. But, I was curious, adventurous and desired to expand my horizons. I don't consider that a bad thing, even though it can be challenging at times.
I ended up staying at Antioch because one of my leaders there deceived me into believing that I would lose God's favor if I left for another church. I realize now that that sounds silly; but I was a relatively young believer at the time, so there was a lot I did not fully understand. Does ignorance make me "weak-minded" or "mentally-imbalanced"? Perhaps in your culture. Thankfully, not in mine. = )
Deception can occur to people, regardless as to whether or not they are mentally-stable individuals. It's a function of being lied to -- or of having some information withheld, such that it would impact your decision. I was deceived, and it was the deception that ended up harming me. Whether or not I would be found to be "weak-minded" or "emotionally-imbalanced" in your view is frankly irrelevant, because the issue was one of deception in many of our cases, including mine.
Anon with the A&M Antioch daughter: I hope things have since worked out for y'all. My attendance at Antioch-Waco strained my relationship with my dad while I was there; but in the years following my time at Antioch, the Lord has restored our relationship. May the Lord also bless your family and restore your relationships, in Christ's Name. <3
DeleteJR: We "dog them" ... because having never attended you don't realize how subtle the toxicity is... the toxicity is slow and so a kin to the word of God you are way deeper in and then what is toxic is explained away in your head and by the "vision" as you call it.So you think, it must just be my flesh that is saying 'this is not the way'. That's why we need each other and this blog ... just as people in Alanon and and Alateen need each other because we still love our Dad, the Alcoholic
ReplyDeleteI'm really kinda sad reading this blog. I've been attending one of the ACC plants in Florida for quite some time and I've experienced nothing but good. I have accountability and prayer partners. I have a home to go to in one of the ACC houses next year. I was raised Baptist which is totally different from ACC. And I've been hurting for so long. But ACC has made me feel stronger in my relationship with God. They are filled with the Holy Spirit and accept your flaws and try to help you grow stronger. So I have to say that it upsets me reading these posts. Because it's the exact opposite that I've experienced. How can a group that's brought me closer to God and made me so much more joyful be so wrong?
DeleteTell ya what, Aly: different people have different experiences. I'm glad yours has been positive. Many people seem to do just fine, if not love the church / movement. But when folks are mistreated, it can dang near destroy their lives.
DeleteI can't speak for other dissenters, but I'll say this: if you are bothered by this site, then please feel free to refrain from reading our testimonies. I post for the sake of those who have been abused, not desiring to upset folks like you. I mean, well, this blog is designed to cater primarily to us dissenters... because we weren't allowed to have a voice at Antioch.
I remember what it was like being a Waco Antiocher as a Baylor student. Being involved in the church made me very sensitive – very thin-skinned. It had that effect on many people. It was not healthy.
Even despite what happened to me at Antioch, I continued to defend Antioch for years. I knew Antioch wasn't perfect; but I believed my leaders when they told me I was "demonically-oppressed". I had done my best to forgive and repent of my sins. I was waiting for the Lord to finally reveal that last, hidden generational sin that would unlock my healing and deliverance.
It never came.
I went over a decade without healing properly -- because not even my mental health professionals were willing to acknowledge the possibility of church abuse. Either that, or they weren't able to make much progress with me, because my Antiocher identity was too ingrained in me to be able to acknowledge the toxicity at Antioch enough for me to heal.
For me to heal, I would have to accept that at least in my case, what I encountered was toxic. I didn't want to believe that. I resisted coming to accept that, because I felt ashamed at having been deceived.
I didn't want to believe that I may have attended a cult. But, then I learned that normal people are deceptively recruited into and retained in cults -- that in fact, it is usually altruistic, brilliant, successful and / or wealthy people who tend to be preferentially targeted by cults -- much like how Antioch might show preferential treatment to popular people who would be more apt to be successful as Lifegroup Leaders.
DeleteAnd, I learned further of the concept of "Mini-cults", which are typically small cults of personality within larger organizations -- for example, the followers of a particular discipler showing favoritism toward their discipler, rather than recognizing favoritism as a sin.
What cults and unhealthy groups look for are those they could best exploit to further their group's or leader’s agenda. Unhealthy churches will recruit from a wider range of people for religious reasons, but they will be looking first and foremost for those who would be most useful to their group. This is a pitfall that a lot of Discipleship Movement churches like Antioch fall into: they specialize in one area -- discipleship and the spiritual gifts that benefit evangelism / mentoring -- while often largely ignoring people with spiritual gifts and personalities that are not as directly-useful for discipleship.
This is not healthy.
Eventually, I was able to come to accept that the abuse that happened to me at Antioch was not from the Lord. After that, it was still an uphill battle in the healing process, because I largely had to go at it “solo”, I received so much negative backlash from the Evangelical community as a whole. But, I trusted the Lord to see me through things, and things eventually got easier.
DeleteNow I feel a lot freer, and I am grateful for that; but – and I do apologize – in my new freedom, I realize I can end up a bit brash and almost apathetic at times – I suppose a bit too insensitive now? Perhaps that happens when you set out to develop thicker skin – and it seemed as if my skin initially got thinner for some time, as I learned what it meant to develop resiliency amidst soul-searching.
I was an Antiocher. Thinking for myself was something I barely remembered how to do, because I had become too afraid of missing out on God’s favor for accidentally getting something wrong.
Creative thinking – resilient thinking – was something I hadn’t been exposed to much since I was a young fangirl watching MacGyver. It was for me a lost art I needed to recover over time.
Back when I was where you were, I could not have handled reading this type of stuff. And good grief, heh, what have I left behind here? I've probably been one of Antioch's harshest critics.
DeleteI apologize where I have used a harsh or brash tone or been unfair; but my involvement with Antioch-Waco was for me personally highly-destructive in its day; and back then, I could not get the help I needed to heal from the abuse Antioch inflicted on me.
The tragic thing about Antioch is that she has both a beautiful side, and a dark side. Once you've seen the dark side, it's like ending up in the Matrix: you can never quite go back to the way things were, because you can never "unsee" the problems you've seen or unlearn the things you've learned. All you can do is decide what you will believe, based on the information you have on hand.
Hello Poster: I understand your point, well made. Let me just say that just because I have never attended does not mean that I have not being exposed to their attitudes. It is almost not possible to live in Waco and not come in contact with their members and feel their attitude. I see them at their work place, I am a contemporary of their pastor as I attended BAYLOR the same years and he knows me by name. I saw the formation of the group since its inception. My sole point is that ultimately we are accountable for our choices. Again I can categorically dismissed the allegations of toxidity although I admit that it can be a negative experience to a few. But no different that ANY OTHER church.
ReplyDeleteAs I say, there is no perfect church. There are reasons why I do not attend ACC but far from judging them unfairly in this public forum I just simply choose not to join them. But I feel compelled to come in the defense of their good name saying to all the parents that read this blog and might have concerns about it reading these harsh criticism . My point is clear; Not perfect but to call them toxic or cultish is way out of line and just simply untrue.
Having said that, I understand your view point but am confident that if you are sincere in your pursuit the good Lord will most definitely guide you where you need to go. A good place to start is by showing mercy for others at ACC. (JR in Waco Texas)
JR, I am a former member of Antioch-Waco. Your assertion of a lack of toxicity / cultism at Antioch-Waco is untrue. I know, because I experienced it and witnessed it firsthand. I have begun blogging about it on my own blog, Wandering Dolly Sods. Lord willing, in due time, I am hoping to go through and provide possible examples of every aspect of thought reform, and to show through examples, using cult researchers' general characteristics / findings, why it is a plausible and fair assertion to consider Antioch-Waco a cult, and perhaps likewise the Antioch International Movement of Churches. I will grant you that my research is ongoing at this time; however, based on my experiences, observations and study of thought reform and cultism so far, it would be plausible at this time to view these groups as potential cults and / or toxic groups. In my experience, the imperfection went beyond healthy-range imperfection, into toxicity and cultism at times. Healthy range imperfection is one thing. Toxic, cultish levels of imperfection are unhealthy. Hence our dissident / recovery blogs.
DeleteOk, so my blog is gone these days; but it was there for a little while, and you have my comments scattered throughout this blog. Best wishes to all, and my apologies where I come across as harsh or especially emotional.
DeleteOh yeah, I almost forgot: one important thing I did learn from studying cultism and thought reform: the term "cult" is subjective. So yes, some people could call a group a cult, others could say it's not a cult, and they could both be right, depending on the criteria they use to define the term "cult". That's why I now prefer the term "unhealthy church", because imperfect but relatively healthy churches do exist, just as unhealthy churches also exist.
As for other terms, it's useful to provide examples to support claims of thought reform, for example, using Lifton's criteria, or to examine a group using a model like Steven Hassan's BITE Model, or to consider what coercive persuasion can look like. Just FYI.
Bottom line? Please, ask for clarification before you flat-out dismiss someone's claim of cultism.
Thanks! = )
All right, I suppose I should provide some examples, especially given that my blog is gone. (And frankly, I'm not sure how well I communicated these things there). These comments of mine may soon disappear as Blogger / Google do away with Google+ connectivity, from what I'm told -- and soon, in March 2019; but here it goes for now, Lord willing:
DeleteTHOUGHT REFORM EXAMPLES AT ANTIOCH, USING DR. ROBERT LIFTON'S CRITERIA:
Delete1. MILIEU CONTROL
Our leaders constantly "encouraged" us to become increasingly involved in church. We largely complied. With the multiple services, Lifegroups, Early Morning Prayer, Discipleship meetings, morning devotionals, church ministry involvement, etc., before too long, our time in church would take on the hours of a part-time to nearly full-time job. As we became increasingly involved, we'd have less time to hang out with people outside of church. As a result, this would lead to a de-facto form of information control and social isolation from people with different viewpoints. With regards to church teaching, there was never enough time for us to process what we were taught in a manner that truly honored the gift of discernment. We were sort-of like a subculture operating within the larger cultures of Baylor and Waco. A number of Antioch folks also discouraged people from leaving if they wanted to serve in a different church, like I did. A number of us felt guilt-tripped / coerced into staying, typically due to Scripture twisting, scare tactics (being warned of loss of salvation or lessening spiritual maturity if we left to serve in another church) and abuse of authority.
2. LOADED LANGUAGE
I could come up with a decent glossary if not small dictionary for Antiochese. Numerous terms tied to Antiocher theology and practices. Many terms used to control and disparage people. Submission, obedience, discipler (your mentor; but your mentorship relationship was like a birth certificate / passport / visa / government-issued license that you needed to be permitted to serve in ministry in the church), Who is discipling you? (Antiochese for checking your ID if they think you're underage / checking your credentials: May I see your ID / fishing license?), male covering, walking in rebellion, living in sin, demonically-oppressed, broken (unfit for ministry in the leaders' view) vs. healed people (fit for ministry, i.e., leaders), lost (non-Christian, or a pejorative term for dissident ex-members who are still Christian), spiritually-mature. Stuff like that.
3. MYSTICAL MANIPULATION
DeleteGood grief, where do I start? Abuse of Scripture. Leaders sometimes controlling people through "checks in the Spirit", which is Antiochese for alleged "red flags" when a member thinks something or wants to do something that maybe the leader doesn't agree with. Testimonies vetted to make sure that they supported Antioch's specific doctrines, including their specific stances on female subordination, demonic oppression of Christians, and reliance on deliverance ministries, for example. Use of deliverance ministries to hold some members in bondage / accuse them of sins they were not necessarily guilty of -- tied to the teaching on demonic oppression of Christians and similarly problematic teachings. Testimonies that refuted some teachings at Antioch were systematically excluded, viewed as not being beneficial to the church.
4. SACRED SCIENCE
Antioch's "Vision and Values". Don't mess with those beliefs and practices if you know what's good for you, unless you want to burn your bridges.
5. DEMAND FOR PURITY
DeleteLeaders and World Mandate missionary / church planter speakers held up as models. A church system that would promote striving toward holiness, but through ever-increasing human effort and church involvement -- to the point of burnout for several of us. Our best efforts were rarely if ever enough.
6. CONFESSION
Our disciplers probably knew our sins better than they knew our personalities, interests and passions as individuals. Antiochs' leaders would sometimes model confession; but interestingly, I think I observed this more among the subordinate female sex. I don't know if that was because I was female and in sex-segregated teachings, or if female leaders were simply more apt to model confession, perhaps in part, due to their subordinate sex. The Steps to Freedom in Christ was encouraged, sometimes paired with deliverance ministries. Confession is a big part of the steps. Leaders taught us that if we do and say all the right things, that God will instantaneously heal us; but some of us put in a good-faith effort to honor all that, and we did not get healed / delivered. Our leaders then accused us of sin / rebellion / justified demonic oppression. This led me and perhaps some others to add additional kinda fake / absurdly-detailed confessions out of desperation, desiring to be viewed as healed / delivered in the eyes of the leadership. In my case, it didn't work.
7. DOCTRINE OVER PERSON
DeleteIf my experience trying to reason with Antioch leaders even around 2016-2017 is any indication, Antioch cares more about her Vision and Values than she does about legitimately restoring damaged relationships. This is not across the board with every individual, but has been my general experience with the senior leaders with whom I have had contact. I have never had so many difficulties trying to contact and reason with church leaders. A royal pain in the butt.
When I was among them, I often complained kinda privately that trying to reason with Antioch leaders was typically like trying to talk to a brick wall.
8. DISPENSING OF EXISTENCE
It's called shunning, excommunication, gossip and ad-hominem attacks -- all directed toward dissenters. The leaders start by disciplining us; but at least in my day, they didn't take our concerns seriously. As we came to stand our ground, they didn't like that; but they didn't take the time to adequately address our concerns, so the momentum just built. I can't blame them too much for wanting to control us, because of the disruption it could cause when we got vocal; but still, I wish they would have turned loose people like me much earlier on. In my case, I was not really free to go. That was the real problem. I'm sorry, but you don't tell people that if they leave your church for another one that they will be rebelling against God. You don't know that.
But anyway, there you have the short version: Lifton's thought reform connected to Antioch-Waco (and some other Antioch Movement churches, as I reached out to leadership in multiple congregations).
Oh yeah, abuse of Scripture:
Delete1. Over-emphasizing spiritual authority;
2. De-emphasizing spiritual abuse, as recorded in the Old and New Testaments;
3. Forgetting that not being healed is not necessarily connected to sin -- consider the blind man in John 9. He was not born blind as a result of sin. Look it up if you don't believe me.
4. Kinda cherry-picking the Scriptures to support an alleged teaching point -- even when some other passages might balance or negate the teacher's claims;
5. Using some passages of Scripture to support strong emphasis on extra-biblical revelation ("Waiting on the Lord" / journaling and so on), and occasionally treating those revelations as pretty much equal to the Scriptures; and
6. Sometimes potentially reading some cultural biases into passages to support Antiocher theology, when other interpretations might be equally valid.
Similarly, it was difficult to find the means of discerning teaching error, due to time constraints; peer pressure to receive nearly every word a teacher spoke as if being directly from God; and even emotional influence from the worship music before and after a sermon teaching.
So anyway, cults tend to use thought reform / deceptive and manipulative practices / coercive persuasion. I will leave it up to you all whom you would like to believe.
DeleteI apologize for not having much time to go into more detail, but I have a life to live, and, uh, I need to see about preserving my comments, in the event that they end up affected with Blogger updating next month to possibly remove Google+ comments.
If you read this and want to contact me, you can try clicking on my profile; but I think they are about to do away with that. I will archive what I can, Lord willing.
Another form of abuse of Scripture that I almost forgot about has been using their Vision and Values - favoring Scripture passages on discipleship and (In my opinion) kinda abusing passages on spiritual gifts - to end up favoring certain spiritual gifts, personality types and thus people.
DeleteAntioch has valued more highly the spiritual gifts of leadership / administration, teaching, exhortation and at least their variant of prophecy. They also value the gifts of service and hospitality, but not as strongly, as logistical support. Other gifts - most notably the gifts of discernment and sometimes wisdom - can end up problematic for Antioch, especially when they conflict with Antioch’s Vision and Values.
The preferential treatment of some spiritual gifts over others has extended to the preferential treatment of people with certain personality types. Antioch has preferred extroverted people with good leadership, teaching and organizational skills.
There can be a great deal of pressure for introverts to become extroverts, among other concerns. It is possible that personality types may converge on a select few types found in senior leadership. If this is the case, then that would likely indicate that Antioch would be a high-control group (a cultish / unhealthy group), because personality type convergence does not occur in healthy groups or the general population. You can learn more about this in Yeakley, Ed., et al, The Discipling Dilemma (1988, a book).
What do we do with all this?
DeleteFirst, pray. Then wait. Scripture teaches us to be patient. Do not argue with a loved one who is a member. Do not try to convince them that the group is unhealthy. Listen, ask questions, plant subtle seeds in their thinking that would hopefully force them to re-examine what they believe and why. A number of us eventually discern error and leave.
When a loved one leaves Antioch and is open to hearing from ex-members, that can help speed along the healing process a LOT. Some scars may be permanent, but even those largely fade in time.
Let us go to church where we want – or spend time out of church for a while if we need to. I went a season without attending church, and have gone a while without reading my Bible much.
DeleteSometimes we need the Lord to meet us on a personal level, and we need space and time to unpack things. This is normal and OK. Do not condemn us. That is the last thing we need.
The Bible and church can become very triggering for us once we leave Antioch. It takes time to process all that. When you can connect your loved one with an understanding Christian counselor, that *may* help. Many of us have benefited from the godly counsel of more open-minded believers, typically “liberal” Christians, because of the legalism and condemnation rampant in the Fundamentalist / Evangelical traditions.
The counsel of level-headed, caring, respectful non-Christian friends and family members can help as well, because their judgment is not apt to become clouded by legalism or Antiocher spirituality.
And, let us rest and heal at whatever pace we need. Just as we are each a different person, so are we apt to heal in different ways on different time frames. This is completely normal. Do not rush things. Trust in what the Lord is doing, and He will likely bring about that healing over time. = )
DeleteFor further reading, I recommend Steven Hassan’s Combating Cult Mind Control (2012). Read it as a concerned family member or friend. Your loved one can read it later on, if they are open to it at a later time in their healing process.
DeleteI’ve also read Dr. Margaret Singer’s Cults in Our Midst (2003).
I think maybe Bright Eyes recommended Twisted Scriptures by Mary Alice Chrnalogar.
Personally, I got a lot out of The Discipling Dilemma (1988), despite its age. It really seemed to help me get my head on straight and encourage me when I struggled.
But, bottom line: recovery is very possible!
I got on here in 2019 not because I needed it, but because I received notification in my Gmail that Google+ was being changed, such that my comments here might be erased. So, I came on here to type up what I thought would help, archive it, and move on. I am out of Antioch and en route to enjoy life! Thank You, Jesus! = D
Wishing you all the best. God bless!
Hello everyone
ReplyDeleteI have been attending Antioch Community Church for quite some time now. So in my defense it is not a cult I can see how you may think it may be a cult but again its not. I have lived with some of the people there and still been able to think for myself I have many of my old friends from high school and not just stuck with ACC people.
If it were not for some of the staff of ACC I probably be in a worse state ever financially, physically, and mentally. Considering I used to go out drinking underage and stuff. The staff helped me through it and so much more.
ACC is a place for people who want to know GOD in a different and more intimate way. We have a thing called lifegroups in which we meet in houses and we meet there with friends and family in a house. Such as that in the book of ACTS. We worship God, study the word of God in text, and pray for one another. Its a place where we can help one another and provide for one another.
ACC is also big on Mission work around the world such as Indonesia, Peru, India, Uganda, Haiti I have been offered many opportunities to go these countries but some turned down.
ACC can be overwhelming at times and I understand that because Im overwhelmed by it. But NO PARENT SHOULD BE ALARMED OR WORRIED.
I have been to many other churches as well and they are just as great but one thing that ACC has that some of the CHurches dont is that ACC has a vision. And one that has been prayed on for many years.
So just saying this to wrap this up is that no one has the right to Judge ACC for what it is or not. Only GOD has that power. But he has called us to love, help and care for one another so why cant we just do that first and then move on.
And I would rather be in ACC than being some other college student wasting my life away becoming an alcoholic, druggie, pot head, playing video games, and watch half the crap that comes on tv that is just depressing.
If you have problem examine yourself ask God to search you. And then speak. May the word that come out of our mouths be word of encouragement instead or word that bring each other down.
And I love all my friends to even thought they live a different lifestyle that what i do Its not my right to judge them. I will speak to them about it but its up to them if they want the help or not. Same as when i go out spread the word of GOD it is up to them if they receive or don't it up to the person not me but between GOD and that person.
I am led to comment on my recent experience at Antioch, a womens' conference I was invited to. I know I was filled personally - ultimately it is a personal relationship with Jesus that is important - and I went away with a new boldness in Christ with the calling he has instilled. In fact, on my way out, I drove into the parking lot of the grand freemason lodge on Waco Ave and 26th, drove right up to the grand master's parking space by the door, and played the KLOVE Christian station full blast, driving around the entire huge building (no windows; I've always thought that was odd with most freemason buildings) playing Christian music full blast - felt good.
DeleteAnyhoo, the last talk was given by I believe it was the pastor's wife. She was very honest and said she yelled at her children in the past week, then proceeded to claim that God was engineering the "TV" show that has gone national and was supposedly blessing marriages, and she was at peace with it all. AT PEACE AS A PASTOR/LEADER'S WIFE HAVING YELLED AT YOUR CHILDREN WITHIN THE LAST WEEK! Come on. She shared that she had had many visions of businesses to start at one point.
Well, I was led to go boldly (after having spent a glorious day and a half praising and worshiping the Lord who has performed spectacular miracles in my life - though not at ACC) - led to go boldly and share with someone "at or near the top" that she needs to bring it home; that there is no business playing Hollywood while yelling at your children (in this position). I also shared that it needs to be brought home, as I have attended (home groups) where, although one a great "worker" in the church, the marriage is unhealthy.
This is a continuation from the above reply (my experience at a recent womens' conference)
DeleteWhy not focus first on home (children) and the leaders within home groups - bring it home was what the Spirit of God wanted me to share. Also, as my calling surrounds child sex trafficking, I asked the leader of this area (who basically ignored everything about my humble approach) to share a powerful move of God taking place in Operation Underground Railroad, and if Antioch was involved. I was brushed off; pretty rude as a matter of fact. She was a leader - Susan I think her name was. Had no interest in hearing the Spirit. This has been my calling and I have been a prayer warrier for many years, supporting and working with the Salvation Army, which originally began this work in the late 1800s when they realized the church was so social, so uppity, while these atrocities were happening. This was in Europe. Susan had no interest in hearing about - please believe me - THE most powerful work of God that is happening in the world right now towards rescuing these children. Though started by a Mormon , now Ex-CIA Operative (we should be seriously ashamed of these divisions in this regard) this man wrote a book called "The Covering" in which he was ADAMANT that no reference to Mormonism or their teachings be in the book. "The Covering" and a series of books written by someone else called the Lion of War (historical novels which talked about two small chapters in the O.T. regarding the ragtag group of warriers who fought with David) represents God's covering over today's warriers, Ex-CiA Operatives, Navy Seals and Special Operatives who have left the government to save the 2 million children around the world caught up in sex slavery. (Many of them 3 years of age). A powerful and moving work of God. Pride is what I felt from this woman, Susan. I had no chance to share all of what I just shared with you. Divisions, cults, what have you -- this is NO time to divide. Please believe me, I have followed and researched these efforts since the Salvation Army's beginnings. For churches no to embrace what is going on here is a shame. There is a movie being made (produced by the same man that made Schindler's List) about Operation Underground Railroad. They have full go ahead with all production as of today. http://www.TheAbolitionistsMovie.com (The music on this site is from the Heavens above). Please do what you can as a member of ACC to support (if only as a prayer warrier) the efforts of http://www.OURrescue.com and to share with all you know. If you really do your research, you will understand why the Spirit led me to Waco Ave. and 26th St. to blast my Christian music. This is no time for divisiveness (or Hollywood-type efforts) in the Church when things are not right at home - I notice there is massive construction and building going on - not impressed.
Also, as a side note (from the recent womens' conference) I believe this "leader"? was also pushing 20% off coupons for her Magnolia store; coupons all over. I believe Jesus would have raised his arm and shoved all of those off the counter and knocked them out of the hands of those passing them out.
DeleteI think the woman you are talking about is Joanna Gaines. She is a TV personality because of the home improvement show that she is in with her husband...Fixer Upper. Magnolia is the name of her business. So...not a pastor's wife as far as I know. I'm not a member of ACC, but I've known Joanna like forever. She was probably just trying to show that she is real....even women of God mess up sometimes. Your post comes across as judgmental and quite honestly a little self-righteous. This Susan chick...may not be the person to talk to about your ministry. Why not speak with a pastor or something? Anyway...I'm no fan of ACC, but you seem personally offended by these women. Find somewhere where you feel heard and accepted. Life's too short to feel wronged and not make a change in your circumstances. By the way, your heart to stop child sex trafficking is awesome. Mission Waco would probably get behind your vision big time. Just sayin.
DeleteThank you for clarifying the leadership issue, and forgive me for speaking out of line in that regard. I did, however, speak up from a background in a church with a very strong message; a message of conviction and repentance I don't hear often enough in other churches. My children are grown; I was a single mother with no child support - believe me I know the experience of being "impatient" with children. My "impatience" with my daughter is what initially drove me to my knees almost 30 years ago. I wanted what the world offered, was following my own will, thought I needed more "stuff", blah, blah, blah, wanted to make an impression (even in church) and she was in my way. Please believe me when I say I have been forgiven much; my calling, by the grace of God, is to stand in the gap for children. Forgive me if I come off as self-righteous. I personally never feel at "peace" when I am impatient with a child. God has given me a second chance with a grandson -and I treasure every moment! Thank you for your advice. I do not live near Waco, but am in contact with Operation Underground Railroad on what I can do to help in my area.
Delete"If it were not for some of the staff of ACC I probably be in a worse state ever financially, physically, and mentally."
DeleteAww, sweetie, you couldn't know that. That's impossible negative thinking. Illogical rationalization.
It doesn't work that way. We don't comfort ourselves that the unpleasant job we have now is better than a job that could have been much worse. That a unworthy friend who mistreats you is better than some other friend that you might have had.
Y'know, Tom, if they're telling the truth about underage drinking, Antioch may have done some legitimate good for that Anon. Other folks may have been able to help, too, and done more good, yes; but if Antioch helped that Anon, then I suppose we should take Anon's word for it.
DeleteThat said, I agree with you that I would probably look into other hopefully healthier rehab programs if I were working with someone like that Anon.
Anon single mother: no need to apologize to me. Actually, I'm glad you shared your experience from that Antioch women's conference. Frankly, your observations are very much in line with what I observed and experienced at Antioch for 5-6 years.
DeleteFor what it's worth, I'm not a fan of the Gaineses. Every report I receive related to them -- every show or book I come across -- seem to me to speak to materialism -- fostering a sense of discontent, coveting, selfishness and poorer money management -- i.e., less funds for tithing / donating to nonprofits -- in a number of people. I mean, good grief, HGTV exists to sell us stuff we can't easily afford. From what I've observed, there really doesn't seem to be much of anything Christian about it. And honestly, why is a business being promoted in a church? What if another church member were a competitor? (A friend of mine, a former Antioch leader in another town, actually runs a similar business. Could you imagine if they went to the same church? Sorry, but churches should not be marketplaces. I thought Jesus made that clear in the Bible.)
And to be blunt, yeah, I gotta wonder about what kind of a childhood their kids have been receiving as a result of all the work and publicity. But eh, if I want a healthy example of godly parenting, I'll look elsewhere: to families out of the limelight whose parents love the Lord and their family; whose parents work hard; and in which family members choose contentment with the little they have, out of their focus on and satisfaction in Christ alone.
I myself have had to sacrifice some time with my daughter to heal up from Antioch. It is not something I am proud of -- frankly, it bothers me -- and it is something that I've been working on rectifying, because I'd rather be spending it with my daughter. I'd rather have a relationship with her.
As for an Antioch lady giving you the cold shoulder regarding Operation Underground Railroad: Antioch has their own anti-human trafficking ministry: UnBound. Their ministry is linked specifically to their churches, and the trafficking survivors they "rescue" are then plugged into their churches.
Ordinarily, this might be okay, except that due to the level of control, I would be concerned that the trafficking survivors would not learn to think for themselves and thus might not end up truly free. And of course, there's the issue of, uh, what if they don't want to become Christians or don't want to submit to discipleship? Do they have to remain trafficked, then?
But supposing they joined up with Antioch, I'd be concerned about coercion because of my own experience with Antioch. What I mean is that when I was with Antioch and found that I did not agree with the church, I was not free to leave with a clear conscience. Some folks at Antioch will manipulate the Scriptures and use coercion to get people to stay, albeit begrudgingly. They will sometimes make us feel as if we'd end up less-spiritual or possibly be at risk of losing our salvation if we were to leave to go serve in a church that better matches our theology. Could you imagine if a person coming from a vulnerable background were to try to leave?
But your Operation Underground Railroad may be a viable option.
I guess it just goes to show: we ought to research these organizations carefully before we get involved or donate.
Well, OK, some folks might bring up the finance book "ReAlign" that I think the Gaineses endorsed? That might be an exception to the materialism.
DeleteBut even then, when I saw the review for the book, I was floored by the arrogance in blasting Dave Ramsey's approach. Ramsey's approach may not be perfect; but it has helped a lot of folks, including my husband and me.
I grew up Catholic, but often found my faith lacking, because there were so many members who saw God as merely a Sunday obligation. Every church I've attended - Catholic, Baptist, and the wide host of non-denominational churches - have emphasized the importance of making God a part of your everyday life.
ReplyDeleteI've just joined the Antioch Community Church. This is the first time I've found a community where everyone buys into the idea of having God in your life at all times. Moreover, they have fantastic programs to support you in this effort, and actually aren't judging you. You want to pray out loud? Okay! You want to just stand there during the service and not sing? Okay!
They don't even push their ideas on you! It was only when I realized that all of these awesome, generally upbeat and positive people all happened to go to the same church (because I asked them how they knew the person hosting a potluck dinner) that I asked them when their service was.
However, since the whole church buys into the idea that you should live your life oriented towards God, I'm sure that those people who you made friendships with centered around a mutual love of God will feel kind of awkward around you after you reject that lifestyle. They might not know how to act around you. That doesn't make them a cult.
A cult is a group of people following one man's beliefs... ACC absolutely follows Jesus, the bible & are fully Christian - they are definitely not a cult & love God as best as they can with all their body, soul, mind, and spirit. They are a rare church in today's time that strives to actually live out they say they believe.
ReplyDeleteMY BACKGROUND: I have attended ACC since 2000 & my husband and I were Lifegroup leaders at one point, although we have not gone much at all the last two years. I think for me, I totally love the vision of the church (living full out for God, stretching ourselves from what's comfortable and easy, understanding that life is as much about others as it is ourselves, meeting people with love and acceptance & not judgment), but I'm in a completely different place in life they they are.
I'm almost 40, and now own a local business in the community. My mission field is the people that work for me, and the people who patron my store. I don't have children. My life looks very different from the typical ACC mom with 4 or 5 kids, or the young 20 something that is going to sell their possessions to go serve in a 3rd world country (although these positions are so valued and needed!).
So for me, there really isn't as much a place for me there right now where I can track with people who are similar to where I am in life. I'm ok with that...now. I think it was definitely hard when I first realized that, and maybe that's how you feel. You may feel that they are moving on with their vision & you are left standing on the sidelines while they leave you behind.
RELATIONSHIPS: I am still technically "a member" of ACC & love the heart of the church, but wanted to let you know that someone out there is not dependent on relationships within the church & can still believe in it. I rarely see people from ACC, and my core group of closest friends don't even go there.
You may feel that "hole" because the truth is, you can't fill it with community. I don't think ACC teaches that, but it's easy to get trapped into that thinking because you do find a great accepting community of people to walk with. God IS in true community, but there is more to Him & you obviously know that. At the end of the day, it always just comes back to you and Jesus.
By the way I loved what you said:
"Yes, you can hear the Lord and follow what He says. Yes, that pleases Him. But you must also know that you are a person with a will, and that is also holy. He gave it to you, and you are in fact an individual. A nameless faceless generation is not what he intended at all. He intended you to be you. God loves you for you, not for what you give to him in the way of time spent with him, prayer, or fasting, or anything." Every word of that is true! I love it!
SUMMARY: I think ultimately, We're all on a different journey & it's ok if we're not in the same place. It doesn't mean that you're wrong, and it doesn't mean that they're wrong. If you're anything like me, I want to be unified with people. Same vision, same mindset, same heart. But we just have to understand that God is multi-faceted & so are his people. Different people groups have different visions. I love Antioch's heart for their own people, for Waco, and for the World. Are they perfect, absolutely not, have I been wounded a time or two - yes!... but I don't believe their heart is to wound, but always to build up, and always to encourage each person they meet to move further in their relationship with the Lord.
I never write in blogs, but just really wanted to let you know I understand how you feel, I agree with your philosophy on life, and wanted to encourage you to keep talking to God about your woundeness through the church so that you can move forward in whatever amazing life that God has for you.
I attended ACC in Waco for a few months. During that few months, I got into a discipleship group and then started to feel increasingly uncomfortable about the things that were said in group as well as the things that were said in church. I eventually left ACC, but the short experience left scars. I agree with your story wholeheartedly and I thank you for sharing it.
ReplyDeleteWhat does the Church look like in the Bible? Why don't we read the Bible and see...Acts 2:42-47 is a great place to see what the church should look like. I have attended ACC of College Station for some time now and although not perfect...this is what our church looks like! Just because ACC looks drastically different than the typical "American" and "Western" church DOES NOT mean that it is a cult or that it's toxic! It is a church that is running straight after what God and what He is doing! It truly is a church that has a passion for Jesus and His plans here on earth! Just because it looks different, does not mean that it is bad...after all as Followers of Christ, we are going to look different than the world, right?
ReplyDeleteYou are right that just because a church looks different, doesn't make it toxic or a cult.
DeleteThings to look for are thought reform / coercive persuasion / undue influence, deception and manipulation of at least a cohort of members. Those are examples of the actual criteria used to determine whether or not a church group is healthy - or for that matter, whether or not a group is a cult.
In my case, I determined that Antioch was not healthy and frankly violated many scriptural passages, albeit in subtle enough ways that a lot of folks haven't recognized it.
As for ACS (Antioch-College Station), I have heard that a cohort of your ex-members have discerned scriptural error in your own congregation and left. Among the concerns has been controlling leadership, a common complaint in the Antioch Movement.
It is one thing to be a believer in Jesus Christ. It is another to embrace errant teachings and practices.
I do apologize, because I probably sound harsh; but I am concerned that the Antioch Movement may be spreading some false teaching and related problematic practices that may be harming some people.
Antioch is a fantastic church that is unashamedly going after the heart of Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteAnd there are other churches who are doing that.
If you have baggage, get with God and take it to Him.
I know this post wasn't intended to be malicious, but the arguing that came off it isn't furthering anything.
So everybody just know that Jesus loves you and has a heart for you and is worth your life.
And you can find Him at Antioch and you can find Him at another church.
Actually, Anon, the counter-perspective on this blog has been amazingly beneficial for some of us ex-members in our healing process. So, the perspective here absolutely HAS furthered things in a beneficial manner for some of us very much in need.
DeleteYou are right that Jesus was with me at Antioch; but the Holy Spirit was also deeply grieved by how abusively many of Antioch's leaders treated me, much like how Chilled Zealot pointed out, I think in this blog's purpose.
In my case, the toxicity at Antioch-Waco was so great that Jesus had to deliver me from Antioch to heal me.
I am glad some are speaking out. I went to Baylor 6 years ago, and I remember seeing girls nearly passing out in class and looking extremely ill because they had been fasting, and were made to do so by ACC. I also was corned by several psychotic ACC goers as they attempted to "convert" me. Horrible influence in Waco. They should be ashamed of their own existence.
ReplyDeleteThey arent made to do so... it is a choice. Both to even do so and the length of time. Fasting is a very biblical discipline and a healthy one. From one who went through 2 elevates. Man shall not live by bread alone but on the very word of God.
DeleteYes, it is voluntary; but the problem is that sense of peer pressure - and the sense of spiritual implication.
DeleteMy leaders referred to the fasting as "corporate fasts", meaning group fasts. Because of the spiritual implication behind all of us fasting together - working together in unity to allegedly receive spiritual authority from God to bind demonic activity, say, for our Juarez spring break trip - there was pressure to fast even when folks were diabetic or otherwise had health problems that should have precluded them from fasting.
Yes, leaders may have stepped in later to address that concern - I know that at least one leader made accommodations for people's health-based dietary needs later on - but leaders did not seem to be paying a lot of attention to this issue in earlier years. Hopefully this has since changed. I mean, can you do non-food fasts now, if you can't fast for health reasons?
Also of issue has been heavy involvement in church, which was strongly "encouraged" by leadership and could result in burnout. Adding a full student courseload on top of everything - daily morning Bible readings, weekly Early Morning Prayer, maybe leadership responsibilities and so on, and frankly, I'm amazed how few students collapsed from fatigue.
Also, that you went through two Antioch Elevate training schools leaves me concerned, rather than impressed, to be honest - because that tells me that they have probably indoctrinated you well - possibly to the extent that you may not be able to discern legitimate concerns that a number of folks have.
I am ResplendentPrism, the person that posted my story on BaylorFans. I was dealing with a new round of emotions last night when I learned that one of my past discipleship group members, a past "mother figure" to me, has died. I stumbled upon your blog this morning, and I must say that I am completely blown away that there are so many others that experienced what I did. The greatest sadness for me is all of the lost relationships that I thought were real. I fully trusted the people I ministered with. They were a family surrogate of sorts, which was so healing to me because of my family background. How weak I was to trust fallible human beings to fill that void of pain. That was my mistake. I was reminded of this in a huge way last night, but my life really has (thankfully) moved on. Love really is stronger than hate, and love prevails. Even when others are lost and misguided by their safe church structures. Peace, and thanks for the feedback in your previous comments.
ReplyDeleteYah, I thought the same way, I am sorry to hear about your loss at the same time. They felt like family to me and I did start feeling like I was being self-righteous even around my parents when I visited them. They kept telling me that something didn't seem right, but it took me a long time to accept it was Antioch. It is good to forgive for your own sake, I've learned, but because a lot of my "friends" go to that church, I withdrew a bit and would stay in my dorm after I left that church. I felt isolated from hanging out with people in the other church I went to but learning that they're not like Antioch. It's just relearning things I guess...
DeleteBy the way, I have renewed my old email address if anyone would like to reach me. Resplendentprism@yahoo.com. Take care.
ReplyDeleteAck, sorry, that's resplendentprism@hotmail.com, not yahoo.
ReplyDeleteThis is my second year at Antioch in Waco. I came in having already heard the cult rumors. I have never seen or heard anything that isn't completely biblical. I have never been forced or pressured to do or go to anything that I did not want to. I have actually been told by more than one person to not rely on encouragement from people. I believe that Jesus is the ultimate encourager, and my identity must come completely and fully from who He says I am, or I will indeed experience pain from the foundation of a false identity. Antioch people hang out often because we are sharing deep parts of our lives with each other, and that builds trust, which builds friendships. Antioch goers want people to attend because we love Jesus and have found a great church and made friends that want to follow Jesus with us. Why would we not want to share that with other people? I respect all other churches but choose to go to Antioch, not because I think Jesus only moves at ACC, but because I like the worship style, preacher, and people. What you are going through/have gone through sounds really hard, and I am truly sorry if you feel as though anyone at ACC contributed. Man isn't perfect, and neither is the church. You are valued and seen by God, and I am confident that your journey with Him isn't over. I hope you find complete peace in this place and land at a church that has everything you need.
ReplyDelete"being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." Philippians 1:6
MBW, I truly worry for you. You have no idea how brainwashed you truly are. I do not say this to be cruel, but because I recognize so many of Jimmy's words in your post. In fact, could have written this very post 15 years ago. I went to ACC and Highland for 25 years. I served in leadership roles at both churches. I went throughMC/ATS/Elevate..but I NEVER REALIZED how deceived I was until I had to move for family reasons. God bless you for your tender heart and "teachable spirit," but I have to warn you that these positive traits are fodder for your deception. Jimmy used to preach a sermon about being teachable...he would talk about this trait alone being the single most important quality in a believer. Please allow me to be very direct for.a moment. There are two possibilities in my mind regarding Jimmy Seibert. He is either an incredibly deceived but talented businessman, or an aware and devious con artist. He knows people and is very good at manipulating his congregation by touching on the common psychological struggles we all face (primarily related to one's familial background, but also often related to unfulfilled desires/passions, insecurities, and FEAR). He knows exactly what to say to capture the attention and focus of his congregation. He uses every mental game conceivable in order to entice obedience from you. The respectably genius part of it is that you are so affected, you THINK it is your idea to be obedient in the WAY he is leading you. MBW, please pursue truth in the word, not your deepest emotions. As counter-intuitive as this may seem, you have got to be stonger in what you know about God than what you feel about him. Otherwise, ACC will ruin you. I am sorry if this is coming across as very strong or insulting, but please know...I have "been there done that," in a big way and for longer than I should have. Good luck to you, and to any other ACC members that are still on this sinking ship. Please, learn to "swim," because when the ship sinks, the people are pulled down with it.
DeleteIt is very brave for you to write such a reply anonymously.
DeleteNo, it was very brave of me to survive many years of spiritual abuse and not give up on life when the false Christianity and false Jesus fell apart before me. But good for you for putting your pithy comment on a dialogue of brokenness. Bravo.
DeleteHello, I've been reading through this blog and I am very curious; Does this pastor, Jimmy pray to the Holy Spirit? I've heard pastors from these churches pray to the Holy Spirit, however it is not Biblical according to the Word of God. What are your thoughts?
DeleteI'd like to stand in agreement with some of Anon's comments on Jimmy Seibert. Yes, I have likewise noticed the psychological manipulation. Seibert in particular has played on our needs, wants, fears, hopes, dreams, insecurities, etc. I thank God that I personally have not come across another preacher who has ever done it to such an extent as Seibert. Once was more than enough.
DeleteHas Seibert done this intentionally? I don't know; but the way everything was orchestrated, it really seemed to me that he would have known that he really has a talent at influencing people.
The other thing I would point out: I have come across one or more publications in which Seibert has allegedly accused some of us dissenters and some Antiochers of unrepentant sin and demonization ("demonic oppression") when we have struggled, even though in many cases Seibert probably has not known us personally.
I have asked to speak with Seibert about this concern, but Antioch-Waco’s church secretary informed me that I was prohibited from conversing with Seibert, I think due to lack of availability in his scheduling, or something to that effect.
Seibert can get very excited. He can use very emotional pleas. He can use scare tactics, too. He may have toned things down in more recent years. I don't know. But, in older recordings I may still have, the emotional pleas and scare tactics become apparent at times.
Among outsiders, he can come across as having an excellent bedside manner, to make those of us who have had concerns look like complete idiots, even as he'll portray hismelf and Antioch as saintly.
He can seem to do and say all the right things at the right time. He seems very skilled in this art. To that extent, frankly, he sort-of strikes me as like a human chameleon – and can manipulate and deceive people as a result.
I would not want to attend a church with a preacher like Seibert. These types are dangerous because of the way they can manipulate people toward whichever end they desire.
I do apologize for sounding so harsh. Seibert may very well mean well. He is human, just like us. I just believe that he probably shouldn’t be in a leadership position in a church, because of how he can hurt people and make the others less compassionate toward those he ends up harming.
Wow. I am really sorry. I don’t mean to say it that way. But…. it might be true – and that’s the scary part.
Does Jimmy Seibert pray to the Holy Spirit? Sorry, I don't remember.
Antioch does rely on a lot of extra-biblical revelation, though - "waiting on God", often in the form of journaling, believing that we are hearing directly from the Holy Spirit. That is standard Antioch belief and practice. At least, it was in my day in Antioch-Waco (2000-2005).
Just watched a film called "Martha, Marcy May, Marlene"... The belief espoused was that love is about not being tied to any posessions..having no dependence on the physical world..in order to achieve true closeness to god and inner peace..death to all of these worldly distractions brings about this state of being..therefore death is love in its purest form. death is love..love is death. And from there the members easily made the translation of the figurative death of inner wants/self to the literal death process to exterminate all unworthy life forces...from kittens to people. Therein is the progression of logical thought into the illogical and the insane. This is not so different to the way people believed at ACC. The leaders break your will slowly and deliberately until you think that it is your idea (or better, GOD'S idea) to stop dating, stop socializing with non members, believe your family to be lost and untrustworthy, fast 30 days at a time, sell your possesions, and move to a third world country. Come on..I mean if I had not been surrounded by that culture of belief since birth, I would not understand it at all. How people join up and buy in during college (at an age when they should KNOW better) is beyond my understanding. Our will to think independently is the reason we survive. Never, ever surrender your self to the will of another person or group. If you do, be ready to die in some form..figuratively or literally.
ReplyDeleteThere is a grain of truth to what you are saying about Antioch. Antiochers don't believe in murdering people, but historically, there has been a sense of isolation from society and self-sacrifice. Some ex-members have been excommunicated over disagreements.
DeleteAs for college students getting caught up in this, it comes as a result of deception. When I was there, Antioch members deceived me about the church's nature. They also did not fully disclose their beliefs and practices. So, please bear that in mind.
Ideally, yes, it would be great if no one got caught up in these groups when they didn't want to; but unhealthy groups use deception to recruit and retain people.
I am not a member of ACC, but have attended many times. I believe it is a church, not a cult. You can feel the unified vision aNd purpose. You need that common vision to reach the world. Having come out of another very strong interdenominational church several years ago, I can also understand some of your other commments. Although I am like you in that I deeply love this church, it could at times be too expectant and demanding. When you have as urgent of a mission as we do, I understand the necessity, but as you said we must allow God time to speak and work with individuals. It may be for a good thing they are asking, but God still needs to speak to you the person. You may encourage if asked; you may pray for that person, for God's will in their life, but we need to be careful to tell them what we perceive it to be. Although I have certainly seen people seeking and their prayers being answered by people confirming it. But you need to be very careful before you interject before telling someone they should move and sell their possessions. If He does lead you to go to a 3rd world country and sell everything you own and are in the Lord's will, I believe that too, and that we are supposed to fast. I believe in the whole church fasting. But as you mentioned God also deals with the individual. When I left the church above, as much as I loved it and still do and the people there, I was burned out in many ways. It took a while to get past it aNd allow God'd healing and renewal. I didn't fall out with God. He showed me reliance on Him and that saying yes to every good thing would make me unfit in the long run because I would be too weary to do it. I just needed that personal time with God. So, I think there is a time when change is needed. God will be there, if we are sincerely seeking him. He will guide us.
ReplyDeleteYou said something that stuck out: You can "feel" the unified vision and purpose. Thats where I think we get confused.. feelings/emotion versus Truth (as we know it.)
DeleteIn my healing process, I came across this good podcast by Pirate Christian Radio, I think, about how a church having a vision isn't necessary (and may not be biblical, if that vision isn't fixated on Christ, as I recall - but I haven't listened to it in a while).
DeleteThe reality is that the Church of Jesus Christ is THE movement, and Jesus is THE vision. How that works out practically in a congregation or denomination will vary.
Having a strong emphasis on Antioch's style of discipleship is good in some ways, but problematic in others, just as other church programs have strengths and limitations.
I think the main thing is to check the health of the congregation: look at the fruit. I personally have not been a part of another church that has had such a consistent, long-standing pattern of complaints against the leadership as Antioch-Waco / the Antioch Movement. I have, on the other hand, been a part of churches that have not been perfect, but have fared all right and contributed to the local community.
An excellent example of abuse of church vision would be the ex-pastor of the now-defunct Mars Hill Church, Mark Driscoll, and the Mars Hill Bus teaching, which you may be able to find online. It is sadly not unlike part of the material I came across from an alleged Lifegroup Training Manual: the concept of starting over - leaving people behind - when a Lifegroup just stagnates with people who aren't catching Antioch's Vision and Values.
When people are truly living in unrepentant sin - when they are truly unwilling to follow Jesus - that is one thing; but when it is a matter of disagreement over non-essential issues, why the division? Isn't our ministry of reconciliation important, or do we want unbelievers to take the lead in teaching us Christians what it means to be in healthy relationships?
Hello, I remember when I started out at UMHB, I did meet some friends and I was starting my life over from a bad marriage. I met some friends after Welcome Week when I went to Hardy cafeteria and they seemed great. I wanted to hang out with them more and more. I visited their church, Antioch, and went to their lifegroups and refuges, and a bunch of other stuff... It took up a lot of my time and money, I ended up with a really low GPA, because I was head over heals about this church and thought I was actually drawing close to Jesus. I used to think that it was drinking and partying that caused people to fail in college but would never point my finger at church involvement.
ReplyDeleteI had a discipler who took me through the Neil Anderson book, Free from Bondage (which is funny because he also has a book on breaking free from legalism). I let this discipler know about my junk but when I tried to know this discipler after sharing that, she seemed like she was above that and made it something like a master/servant deal. I saw this when I couldn't do a food fast for 3 days straight as she "rebuked" me (rather chewing me out) for falling short of my promise to abstain from eating for 3 days (I cracked on the second evening). She also put me on the spot in a student dining area with some people nearby and I tried to ask her to discuss that with me alone. After reading a book called Twisted Scriptures, it was kinda like ding ding ding... I ended our disciple thing "for personal reasons" and she got angry at first but it was over.
I met someone who started going to the lifegroups whom I liked a lot and later they told me that a few people told him that I was a bad influence and emotionally unstable, that he shouldn't try to date me. It made me want to ask who but he wouldn't say. I did actually feel before that incident I was on the outside as I was going to lifegroups but kept trying to shake it off. I think I figured it out later when I met another person who is now my husband. He told me that he was also strongly discouraged from being with me and should break it off and I found out who said it that time because he had a Bible study with the person who said that.
It didn't stop him from marrying me. We went to another church, and I began to heal but still have trust issues after Antioch. They may not be a Jim Jones cult but they are, in my opinion and experience, spiritually abusive.
The church seems to appeal to ones ego. Reading the comments earlier that suggested we should not be concerned, sounded very egotistical. As if we weren't Christian because we have concerns. I can see through this but my son cannot. This mantra about having a vision setting it apart from other churches, is a part of this also. The church is to be based on the Bible not on a man's vision.
ReplyDeleteI have called the church before to express my concerns but its hard to get to talk to anyone. I finally was able to but the associate pastor didn't give me biblical answers.
Anonymous from 4/20, I understand your concern, and I am sorry you are not getting the Biblical answers you seek. My dad tried to do the same thing for me when I went to ACC. The responses he got ranged from prayer to belittlement for his assumed lack of faith. Support and love your son, and please keep faith that in the end your TRUE care will trump all of the emotional ooy-gooey junk that passes as the Holy Spirit (which is a whole other topic...suffice to say that emotions rule many, many prayer and worship times, not God). Anyway...I couldn't accept what my dad said about ACC while I was still entrenched in their ideology, but once I finally pulled away he was a huge refuge and I was so thankful for his wisdom. Don't give up. -RP
ReplyDeleteLike RP, I also had to get away to get a better grasp on what was going on.
DeleteMy involvement with Antioch put a strain on my relationships with my formerly tight-knit family. The Lord restored those relationships after my time at Antioch, but my relationship with my dad in particular ended up very strained while I was at Antioch. It hurt him a lot; but the Lord did in time restore our formerly close relationship. At the time of this writing, my dad is 82 years old, and we are thankful once again to have a close relationship. I realize we probably don't have much time left; but the strain that came in our relationship from Antioch is something we don't really even think much about anymore, we have been so blessed to have had our relationship restored.
(My dad was going on 44 when I was born. A few years after my time at Antioch, he almost died of a heart attack; but the Lord spared his life and has extended it more than ten years now. He went on from then to watch me graduate from Baylor, attend my sister's commencement a year later, walk me down the aisle, attend my grad school commencement, walk my sister down the aisle, and hold his granddaughters in his arms. The Lord remembered us, blessed us, and restored our relationships in full - not unlike the happy ending to the book of Job. God is good. = )
Thanks for posting RP. This is so encouraging to me.
ReplyDeleteSomething is very wrong when a church charges people $2800 to attend training to become one that allows the Holy Spirit to totally fill their lives. The so called Elevate classes at Antioch bring in questionable speakers from around the globe to speak to the individuals who paid so much to learn how to be disciples. How does Antioch determine what "prophets" are hired to come speak? How does Antioch explain the maltreatment of so many of its returning mission staff? Why do so many of the mission staff leave Antioch? Why do some mission staff feel trapped and bound by Antioch? I do not think Antioch fits the strict definition of a cult but it is close and there is certainly an inner circle and those outside the know. In the end times the Bible tells us pastors will lead the flock astray. The pastors at Antioch (and there are sooooo many of them) do not all even have what would be considered formal pastoral training. Not that this is all important but even Christ believed in true enlightened understanding of the God's word. One might do well to understand why Antioch so badly wants to raise large sums of money for building a new temple. Christ did quite well on the hillsides where His funds and time were invested in the feeding of people both spiritually and physically. My family attended Antioch and we will not be going back. We pray daily for those who are being misled into spending time and money in Antioch pursuits that might stem more from narcissistic leadership than from God.
ReplyDeleteI attended too and completely agree. It is predictable that the church leadership will see feedback like that written above by many people and claim it is the devil bringing trials upon the church and if everyone continues the course they will be doing God's will. There are many good churches and many Godly pastors that take stock of what is happening in their churches and try to correct events and situations so as to stay on God's path. Our experiences at Antioch were to not question the church leadership, do as told and do not ask for help. The church takes much from people and I pray the pastors at Antioch figure out that God gives and expects pastors to model that giving and truly loving behavior to the church members. Granted pastors cannot prevent members from doing some things that are questionable; but, pastors can respond appropriately when given feedback about what is happening within their own churches. My concern is that the leadership has developed an insular protective cocoon that keeps them from responding appropriately to member concerns. God can do anything! Pastors need to respect fully who they are actually working for - God is the chief not the pastor.
DeleteIn a day and time when Christians are being criticized it is sad to see pastors that are so supportive of their will and that do not listen to the counsel of others. I do not mind being criticized for being a Christian as that is something that is going to happen. But I never want it said of me that I drove people away from Christianity because I had abusive and self-serving motives. I pray for the pastors at Antioch and those that are led by their efforts. The so called prophets that Antioch hires from overseas to come teach at great expense to members in some ways reminds me of Saul consulting the witch for advice. I would hope a little more Christian prudence would fall upon the administrative halls of Antioch. It is sad to see so much effort doing good but also doing harm to so many that feel wronged by the church and have nowhere to turn for solace. I pray these individuals who have been hurt as a result of this church draw closer to God, find a loving church and realize that pastors make mistakes but this many repeated mistakes should be seriously questioned.
I agree! (with the last two posts!) I did the Elevate, learned about being "teachable" as the highest gift, the whole "prophet" thing. I went overseas to serve on the outreach, because I felt God was leading me there. Then the leadership asked me if I'd stay longer, so I did, a year. I came home for the summer, and planned to go back for 6 months to finish out with the "team." They wouldn't let me on the flight/chaos/ I didn't return. That was a moment when I really questioned "why?" bc I didn't fit in here; I longed to be back. Shortly after, I fell into 'psychosis' where I thought satan was taking over my body, and I wanted to kill myself -not to harm anyone or do anything evil. I wanted this girl Amy to pray over me (from Antioch), but my parents wouldn't let me talk to her. They intervened. They took me to a metal hospital, and got me on meds. Needless to say, I had a brain tumor. I thought that God could supernaturally heal it. So I had various people pray with me, and we agreed for healing. However, God had other plans. He had me walk through this trial, in faithfulness, instead of a 'quick fix.' which I wanted. So I had surgery. It's a miracle, though, in retrospect. My tumor, the last time I had an MRI, which was January of this year, is actually shrinking (they left a little bit around sensitive areas like my speech). Which also could be this homopathic detox, which I felt stuff draining from my head. The point is, I don't know what God is doing. I don't think we'll ever know. We can't put him in a box and say he heals this way, and this way only!
DeleteI had a seizure at church, (a safe place, or so I thought, so it couldn't be an "attack.") So I've been in recovery through a solid church, solid meaning they stand upon scripture and community. So I've been recovering for 3+ years. I have gone to counseling, and reading the scriptures. I have gone to counseling. I am also in celebrate recovery.
This past sunday, our preacher talked about the famous passage in John when Jesus says, "greater things you will do" 14:12. It ruffled my feathers. He mentioned Benny Hinn, and how he likes money. I thought to myself, how judgmental! And I talked to someone older, more wiser, she said, "that's not being judgmental, but discerning." It is true, so many of us are focused on our emotions. Hence, emotionalism. What we "feel" or "see." She said, "I've seen people cry and jump up and down with tears, saying 'I love you Jesus'"! Yet when they get out to their car, they loose it. They see someone on the side of the path, that is in need, and they keep walking. Or drive like a mad man; cutting off people and speeding. Jesus says what? "If anyone LOVES me he will OBEY my commands.'" No one is perfect, but we all need to obey God in whatever circumstance. We have the holy spirit, so he quickens to us what we need to know or say.
So I asked God, what is your church? Why are there so many divisions? He said Love. We don't love like he loved.
I googled antioch, and "antioch community church cult" was a search item! So it's true, I'm not alone. I'm not odd, or out of place, I'm in good company with people that are recovering from ACC, too!
*mental, not metal
DeleteI am still upset about the sexual abuse from a youth worker from many yrs ago. It happened to a few guys. Why did NOONE get the police involved? Instead, Lane got a "going away party" and not only left town but Texas all together. I am ashamed I didn't report it myself. I was a kid at the time, but I still knew what should have been done. How did I ever attend HBC and ACC. My parents led me into a den of deception, self-involvement, and shame. KK, how could you still marry him?! Ultimate betrayal to a bunch of us. F#@k all y'all.
ReplyDeleteI have attended many ACC services, both before and after hearing the "cult" rumors. I came into the church a skeptical person, struggling in my faith, who has been met by God in powerful ways. Since choosing for MYSELF to walk with God, I have been so blessed by the staff and congregation of ACC Waco.
ReplyDeleteI briefly left Antioch to attend another church, and was never "cut off" by my lifegroup or church friends, but was always embraced as a friend and daughter of Christ.
Those of you worried over these blog posts should remember that the enemy is always causing a push back in movements that God is propelling greatly. Use your spirit of discernment- when God does amazing works in your own lives, is not the enemy waiting around the corner for an opportunity to trip you up?
I am not denying in any way, shape, or form the charisma or liveliness of ACC or its attendants. It is an evangelical, non-denominational community of believers who have huge hearts for God. It can make visitors uncomfortable because of the energy level of worship, and the Truth spoken in the messages can oftentimes be shocking from a worldly point of view, but God does not call us to be of the world, he calls us, as Believers to be Christ-like and Truth-seeking.
As for those of you who have been personally hurt by a member of ACC, I apologize on their behalf. Remember that those members are not perfect, and if they are acting in an unGodly way, remind yourselves that this is a reflection of their human weaknesses. I have sat in many ACC services where pastors have specifically spoken on reaching out in a loving way, and not hurting those in our communities of faith. I am very sorry for your experience. Please know that those from ACC who speak out in malice are a small minority; most are very loving and kind.
Also, I feel that I must point out that although Antioch Community Church branched from Highland Baptist, they are not sister churches and have been two separate entities for roughly three decades.
As for the rumors that Antioch is a cult- I see no evidence. They never forced me or anyone I know of to change a single thing about myself/ themselves. I was never encouraged by the church to leave friendships our cut ties. I was, however embraced in spite of my brokenness by a community who encouraged me to do well in my classes and pursue a personal relationship with Jesus. When I explored other churches in the Waco area, I was treated no differently by those who attend ACC. I have never felt pushed to change myself to gain acceptance from the church, nor have I ever witnessed a single cult-like practice at Antioch.
I do not think this is the right church for everyone. For people who prefer a more traditional approach to church, Antioch is not an appropriate fit, but we must remember different approaches to God are part of His wonder: He wants to meet us in a way that is natural to us, and this preference varies from individual to individual.
If ACC doesn't fit you, that is fine, I ensure you that you are loved just the same! But to say that the church is a cult or a place of bad or ungodly people is a lie. It is very clear that God has blessed the church abundantly over the years, and has built Antioch into a place of spiritual growth.
you don't know how cultic groups work. I PAID for the privilege of being controlled. I asked for them to run my life. and they WANTED to run it. google mortification of self which is something the military does to induct new people. that is the same thing the lifegroups want to do to new members "make them humble and praying" or rather, "receptive to what we teach, and will not cause trouble." I wish I had the balls myself to stand up the leaders when I saw them shame and ostracize people who did not TOE THE LINE. But I was too busy being the perfect memeber, I was worried about me. My sister left before me, and I wished her well as she left, because of all the pain and crap her homegroup leaders put her through....BUT I STAYED. I stayed. I saw them tear people down as "rebellious" and "not walking with god" when they were just honestly expressing what they believed to be right and true.
DeleteDear Pete, I'm so sorry you went through that and watched other people go through that. You are truly loved by God and accepted in the Beloved. You are being strong now by speaking up. You are courageous.
DeleteHi anonymous poster from 10/20. You clearly drank the kool-aid. Your perspective is indicative of one who has been fully immersed in the culture and community of ACC. You sound like a Seibert sermon, through and through. It's wonderful that you felt no sense of loss or rejection when you left the church for a time. I would venture to say, though, that your experience is highly atypical and likely due to one of the following: A- you were not fully entrenched in ACC ideology and discipleship before you left, or B- you did in fact experience ostracization but your newfound sense of belonging lends you toward feeling a sense of duty and obligation toward ACC, leaving you to defend her honour. Either way, I urge you to heed the warnings of those who have left. It is not that we need to be right or hurtful toward your walk with Jesus, it is simply that we have been "forerunners" in a sense. Be well, and at peace, but weigh the perspectives and stories you are hearing against what the Word says (not against your feelings of what the Lord is saying). When I was there, I mistakenly believed the internalization of false teachings was God's voice. That confusing of God with man left me a wreck. Please consider these thoughts.
ReplyDeleteI'm wondering if I attended the same ACC that you did... I experienced none of this. Nothing horrible, just good
DeleteI lived in Waco 7 years, became very involved in my church (ACC) I grew in Christ, my husband was introduced to The Lord through some guys who attended ACC, and he gave his life to Christ. We moved from Waco to the Dallas area and now are members of Pastor Chuck Swindolls church. We are very active in our current home church and we are very thankful for the role ACC played in our lives.
I was invovled with ACC back when it was still part of Highland Baptist Church. They are NOT a cult. But they are cultic. There is a difference. A cult exists and harms every member (with maybe a few lucky leaders who are ok. Whereas cultic groups have cultish qualities but not every member is damaged by them. I know a few people who were not damaged by their time at ACC. I have a friend who went overseas with them who recently broke off and they say it was a mixed bag and are pretty charitable, but they still left. however, I can personally count 10 people I know who found ACC to be abusive emotionally from my time there. Many are now christians involved in other groups. I know how judgmental the leadership of ACC is, because I was one of them, and I know how judgemental I was as a leader. this may help: http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studymindctr/study_mindctr_lifton.htm
ReplyDeleteYour link from the ICSA just confirms that the term "cult" is subjective. So, technically, no, you still can't really prove that Antioch was cultish and not a cult. It's going to be somewhat subjective.
DeleteLifton's thought reform: I seemed to have exprienced and witnessed every aspect of that at Antioch-Waco.
As for your claim that everyone in a cult is harmed: do you have research stating this? Because based on what I have read by social psychologists, actually, cults seem to have different effects on different people at different times. Some can end up very harmed; some only a little; and for some, the effects may very well be subtle, such as developing a more calloused attitude toward harmed members.
Lifton's full book on Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of "Brainwashing" in China comes to mind. Dr. Lifton uses several kinda case studies to demonstrate that the environment had different effects on different people, yet that the overarching group had a general set of parameters that were fairly consistent throughout the environment.
As for only encountering 10 emotionally-abusive people at Antioch-Waco, praise God it wasn't more! But even having one abusive leader can lead to the development of a cult. This is why we look more at aspects like the presence or lack thereof of deception and thought reform, for example, rather than the number of abusive individuals in the group.
here is the thing about ACC-- they don't use negative reinforcment. I was never TOLD that I was ungodly when I watched R rated movies or went dancing. But they constantly told us what godly people were like and IF...IF you did as your were told, you were bombarded with acceptence and love. When I was a member, people would do anything for me. When I spoke out and left, I literally lost 95% of my relationships with people at the church. This is called "dispensing of existence" to quote lifton: "Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also." (Lifton, 1989)
ReplyDeleteLet me make it clear, I would never have said it out loud (because it would have been uncharitible) but as a master's commission member I knew that we and our group were "way more right with god/holy spirit" than any other church/group in waco. there were a few pentecostal churches we though well of, but we knew we were better than the average baptist and the average baptist church. we did not think it was because WE were great. we felt "humble" that god had led us to this special group that was so much better than 95% of other christians in the world. I remember praying that god would make other people (christians) miserable in their current church/life so that they could come join us. That is so messed up.
ReplyDeletePete, I felt that way, too - that we Antiochers were better than other Christians. We were not alone in that sentiment.
DeleteAt one point, I recall some Antioch teacher at the stage (pulpit) at Antioch-Waco seemed to mock smugly other Christian organizations and missionary groups for not being as hard-core. I no longer recall who it was or the teaching it came from; but it really had a chilling effect on me. It sent the message loud and clear that serving in other Christian groups was something I had to do discreetly. More than anything, since the leaders did not permit me to serve much of anywhere in the church and not always through their missionary efforts, it had the effect of discouragement on me - it made me feel as if I were not truly free to serve the Lord using my gifts. I hated it. It really made me feel undervalued and unappreciated.
While at Antioch, I briefly dated a Lifegroup Leader (not any of mine - a leader in another Lifegroup / Section). He echoed the sentiment that Antioch was kinda doing things better than everyone else.
So, it was not just you. It was not just me. It may have even included a vetted Antioch leader. And it did include my Lifegroup Leader date.
When I spoke with Antioch elder (I think) Danny Mulkey around 2016, he thought that this sense of superiority was immature.
I concur.
But the problem was that when I was there, that attitude persisted at least somewhat. It was sometimes more obvious and sometimes more subtle.
I mean, good grief, I even had a Lifegroup Leader say I would be "rebelling against God" if I left Antioch for another church in town when I found that I did not agree with Antioch.
Uh, that's a problem. Hopefully they train their leaders better these days - to recognize that no, Antioch isn't for everyone, and that that's OK.
Pete--your comments resonate with me in a deep way. If I didn't still have family in the church I would tell you my name, but I will say that we were on VERY similar paths. The information you shared about "dispensing with reality" was right on. Alao, I too remember crying out to the Lord in intercession times for revival...for hours....and for every church but ours (of course, we already had revival...lampstand - check!). So glad you made it out whole and are still ministering. Took me a loooong time to get there too. Thanks for posting here. Your honesty is utterly refreshing. Peace to you.
ReplyDeleteI think you mean Lifton's "Dispensing of Existence", one of Lifton's eight characteristics of thought reform... but yeah, one might say that at times, "dispensing with reality" might've fit, too. ; )
DeleteI grew up in a staunch AG church where I struggled with what I perceived to be individual manipulations under the guise of 'manifestations of the spirit'. As I matured, attended college and graduate school, I moved to the opposite end of the spectrum. Reason replaced emotion. I found this to be equally inadequate.
ReplyDeleteComing to Baylor as an employee, not a student, my family and I visited ACC on numerous occasions. What I read, saw, and heard was, IMHO, theologically sound. I was extremely skeptical. Thanks to my childhood experiences, I probably always will be. But my faith requires a church which seeks to both know and live out scriptural tenants as well as an emphasis on embracing BOTH reason and emotion in the pursuit of living a Christ-centered life.
We chose to attend ACC full time about 6 years ago. I have contradicted or argued points in life group. I've raised concerns with members of the leadership. I've been well received on every occasion... that doesn't happen in a cult. The concerns I expressed were directly related to the church's emphasis on service (missions) and relying on emotional responses to God. These weren't explicit teachings, but implicit and tantalizing components... particularly for the college crowd. Having expressed these concerns, and not alone in doing so, I've seen and heard the appropriate response from Jimmy and the other leaders. Jimmy has spoken numerous times on 'serving where you are' and being a 'good steward of the opportunities you've been given' these past four years. In other words... 'Hold up, kids! Let's not drop out and run to Kenya assuming that's what God asks of you in the here and now!' Antioch is not a cult. It's also not for everyone. It has grown as a congregation; evolved and matured. But, as with any church, it is a collection of flawed and fallible men and women. I drink beer on occasion, struggle with chewing tobacco, battle daily to be a good husband and father. I find Antioch to be a welcoming and encouraging place of worship, education, and restoration for me and my family. Jonathan Stoops
Oh, and Happy Easter! Thank the Lord for saving grace! I pray we all find the grace to grow in our faith and the communities of believers to support us in our pursuit of Christ. Stoops
ReplyDeleteThanks for posting your story. Given your free spirit and autonomous outlook, I can see that you are living in the initiation stage of involvement right now. I remember it well. You are intoxicated by the lotus flowers, Jonathan. Your dissenting comments and questioning of leadership will be accepted only to a point. There will come a day, sooner rather than later, when your siren call of accountability will be shut off or shut out. You will receive someone's word from the Lord or discernment that you have a rebellious spirit. Or, you may simply be "passed over" for leadership advancement. Until then, may you bask in the dream of what the church COULD be. It's a beautiful vision to behold, and one that I hope will truly change to reality one day. Guard your spirit and your heart.
DeleteI have been going to Antioch my entire life, but I have also been involved in other churches through AWANAs and VBS etc. All I can say is that I love it. . . and I know a lot of the staff to be very friendly and independent and wonderful men and women of God and amazing teachers. I also teach one of the Children's classes in the pre-school. If the way that we teach seems toxic to you, that is ok, but the kids do love it and accept it wholeheartedly. I understand what you are saying, but I will have to disagree. . . Antioch Community Church is a wonderful place and not a cult.
ReplyDeleteWow...I understand that you, as an individual, may not agree with what is going on in a church and may be hurt by the experience. However, Antioch is not a cult. A cult is a group of people who follow a single person claiming to be a god or a prophet or something like that. In my ten or so years at Antioch, I have never heard Jimmy or any other leader claim to be God or anything more than a man or woman who is following God. I, as I said a moment ago, have gone to the church for more than ten years and have had nothing but positive memories and experiences from the church. Have painful things in my life been brought up? Yes. But this was only for my good in the long run and I am a much better person now than I was a few years ago. Antioch is full of loving and caring people who really do just want to see you succeed and live a life full of love for the world and for Jesus. This church is truly amazing for me.
ReplyDeleteEvery person is different and will react differently to the church, but I have never seen ANYTHING in more than ten years of time serving at and attending Antioch that would suggest some higher motive, other than serving God in the world.
I see lots of people have false ideas about what defines a cult. A cult does not HAVE to be a group of people following a single person. Mormonism is a cult. J-Dubs are a cult. Scientology is a cult. Hare Krishna is a cult. Gothard-ism is a cult. Look up Steve Hassan's website and look at his checklist about cults - it's completely eye opening. Personal responsibility goes out the window when it comes to brain-washing. THAT is the hallmark of a cult.
ReplyDeleteJust for the record, one of the above posts defending ACC - the one that talks about how "the enemy" is constantly out to get them - that is classic cultish and brainwashed behavior.
With that said, my cousin has gone down the rabbit hole with ACC and I wholeheartedly believe that she is in a cult. They have slowly changed her entire personality, her belief set, and yes, her relationship to family the longer and deeper she is in ACC. Because of things said in the "lifegroups" my aunt and uncle are no longer allowed to have their grandchildren overnight - because my uncle enjoys reading vampire novels. ACC said that it is "inviting Satan into his home." When my aunt and uncle offered to give them new living room furniture - free, with no strings attached - ACC told them they needed to pray about it - constantly. My aunt and uncle eventually gave up. My cousin claims to have healed someone of a broken arm on her mission trip with her husband. Her husband has increasingly become volatile, rigid in his belief set, and 'sharp' - and we all walk on eggshells around him. There are many other telltale signs that haven't gone unnoticed by any of us - no one dares to say a word against ACC because we are all afraid she will cut us off. ACC has destroyed so much of our family that my aunt and uncle don't even go to *their* church anymore - it makes them horribly depressed. ACC obliterated the faith of numerous family members - that's incredibly Christian of them isn't it?
This is so unbelievably sad. I am sorry for your cousin and her parents. What a heartbreak. Please please please keep a "cordial" line of communication open with her. One day she will need to get out, and if she knows you are not against her, she may come to you for help.
DeleteI'm not even sure where to begin. I've been a member for over 15 years, have a Master's degree in Psychology (LPC) and read vampire, and werewolves, and zombie, and robot, and King, and Koontz, and Rice, and on and on and on. I've lead life groups helped with missions, and served amongst the thousands of members, and the more I read stories like this the more it makes me sad. There are people who take things over board, and when dealing with a church of thousands, there tend to be more. That does not make them/us a cult. I know people who act the same way from my local Baptist church and Methodists church, and Assembly of God church... It's called over zealous. I'm truly sorry your cousin falls in that category, it's not something you want people to do, but it does happen. I'm absolutely sure the if any church could stop this, they would but Antioc is not in the business of controlling people as so many others have stated.
DeleteI've never been asked to excommunicated anyone. I've never been told to stay away from other churches. In point of fact, when I moved away, many members encouraged me to be active in my local church, find a group of believers and walk with them. Sure you're going to justify your stories in some way... You want to find a reason and when you go searching you will. I'm not going to change anyone's mind I, know that, but if you have never stepped foot in, you all sound like McCarthy.
PLEASE HELP!!! My brother unfortunately died of cancer on July 23 in Norman, OK...myself and family had flown to OK while he was sickly and were denied access to see him at the hospitalby the wife and hospital administration and now that he has passed are not allowed to attend the services. We are her in Norm, what can we do...we love our brother dearly and it breaks our heart that our nephew has no access to us.
ReplyDeletePlease someone offer some advise.
ReplyDeleteHi Sunshine. So sorry for your loss. Not knowing the whole situation, I am finding it difficult to offer advice. Is/was someone from ACC keeping you away from your brother and nephew? Family members can be irrational when facing a crisis, so I hope that by now your brother's wife has become more open or flexible. Please feel free to email with additional details, and I will try to be as helpful as possible. Resplendentprism@hotmail.com
ReplyDeleteI am so grateful for this blog and these comments. I am a mom with family members in Antioch. My daughter has been overseas with AMI and the things she was telling me were going on left me stunned. Yet she thought everything was just fine. She's been back for a year and instead of pursuing her chosen career, she is taking more courses with AMI and planning on more overseas trips. She just had a talk with me and I shared my concerns and reasons for them in a very equitable manner, whereupon she let me know that I would now be left out of this part of her life since I don't agree with Antioch. She has cut me off and it is heartbreaking. This is an intelligent, well-educated young girl that was discipled from a young age by me, her mother, to love and serve God. And yet she doesn't consider me to be part of her "community" to inform her decisions. I believe there is something very wrong with this group, that it divides Christian families. I have talked to many leaders in AMI, and been greeted with pleasant platitudes and no action. Parents are persona non grata in this organization.
ReplyDeleteAntiocher Mom, I can understand your concerns. I actually just talked with an Antioch-Waco elder on January 27, 2016, regarding parent-child relational problems. From what he told me, Antioch asks folks like your daughter to work out differences with parents as best they can before heading overseas. However, I am not aware of any action or accountability in this area. It is probably going to be rather subjective. The elder I chatted with, told me that basically, communication with one's parents was the responsibility of the participant, and that communication is likely to occur via Skype when it does. He also referred to some annual Q&A parent luncheon that Antioch puts on, which he says they've been doing since about 2007 (after I left in 2005). In my experience with Antioch-Waco from 2000-2005 -- primarily in the college ministry, although I've known several church-planter / training school folks as well -- this mentality of us cutting parents out of our lives was a bit problematic then. A number of us really seemed to develop altered minds and personalities as a result of the teaching, practices and environment, and I have not yet observed high-up Antioch leaders to take any responsibility for what may be thought reform and cultism -- rather than scriptural mandates -- being the primary culprits tearing apart some families. I am hoping to seek further clarification from other high-ranking Antioch leaders in the future. As I do, I am hoping to post more on this on my own Antioch dissident blog, http://wanderingdollysods.blogspot.com/ , which is sort-of my unofficial continuation of Chilled Zealot's blog.
DeleteLynda, read Matthew 10:34-39.
DeleteHard teaching, difficult to accept. Jesus could also be accused of advocating for the tearing apart of families.
Absolutely. In fact, I had an Antioch leader pressure me to disown my Christian parents - over that very passage.
DeleteI did it back then, and it left me in really rough shape. When I became in need of support a short while after that, senior leaders at Antioch-Waco sent me home to the parents I was pressured to disown. They sent me away from the only support system I had left at the time: Antioch.
I had to go back to the parents I was pressured to disown.
Thankfully, they took me back. They treated me more like Christ than people at Antioch did.
Yes, that teaching is in the Scriptures; but you need to be very, very careful in applying it. The same Bible that has that passage also teaches about how Christians have the ministry of reconciliation.
Perhaps I am interpreting the passage wrong, but I see no reason why Christian members of a family should need to divide, except perhaps to "leave and cleave" - establish separate households - in nuclear families as kids marry, and for the sake of church planting / missions. Even then, I do not see where the relationships should need to be destroyed or strained when everyone involved is a believer.
My parents were and are churchgoing Christians. If I am to divide from them, how are the non-Christians around us supposed to see Christ's ministry of reconciliation through us?
Although then again, good grief, we ourselves are divided over theology - not that I mind in the end - though it be unfortunate and undesirable - because I believe in taking a stand against spiritual abuse.
I am sorry, but I do believe that if your point is putting Christ first, well, when we are Christians, we are already doing that.
DeleteBut, if you really want to push the issue and imply that perhaps I am not Christian by choosing to maintain the relationships with my parents, then I would rather not follow your deity, anyway, because I do not like cruel "dieties" that promote unhealthy human thinking and behaviors.
Yes, true, there is a bit of sacrifice to the Christian faith; but I don't see that sacrifice as being one of antisocial thinking and behavior in most cases.
But admittedly, perhaps I am wrong.
DeleteAh well, the way I see things, I figure life is too short to spend on hating people and hating oneself. And if you want to accuse me of sin here, heh, you can't love your neighbor as yourself if you can't love yourself, anyway.
I did the Antioch thing. I looked to the Lord for help. The abuse at Antioch was more than I could handle, even with God's help. Sorry, but it was very unhealthy for me and actually greatly eroded my trust in the Lord, especially back in the day. It has been a work in process working to restore my faith ever since.
You want to take that passage very strictly, fine; but as for me, I'll try to take into account the overarching context of the Scriptures out of a desire for a more balanced and hopefully healthier theology.
All right, I gotta admit: Anon, with all due respect, I believe that you may be intending to take that one Bible passage a bit out of context in my case.
DeleteI believe that it was not actually the will of God for me to disown my parents when I was a college student.
I believe this, because the Bible teaches us to honor our parents (one of the Ten Commandments); to carry our own load; and to love our neighbors as ourselves.
It also teaches us to do for others what we would want others to do for us. I do not want my daughter to disown me, and I want people to advocate for me when I am abused. So, I am acting in accordance to my understanding of Christ's teaching on the Golden Rule.
I was in college to seek a degree in the hopes of supporting myself through a career by way of earning my degree. By disowning my parents, that cut off my funding for my college coursework and left me homeless once the semester was up.
Deliberately ending up homeless by cutting off relationships does not demonstrate love for one's neighbors as oneself when you consider the burden it ends up placing on society through requiring additional funding to the welfare system that should go to people who have no option for a support system.
Now, you might think, "But you could've just gotten a job." Well, first of all, this was Waco. Living-wage jobs weren't exactly plentiful. Next, I would in short order end up in rehab because the abuse at church got so severe that I required it. So, I would shortly thereafter end up, for a while, unemployable; whereas at least by staying in college even part-time - and certainly by getting away from Antioch - I stood a fighting chance.
I believe that the biblical answer in this case was to do the societally-responsible thing that also honored my parents, which was to stay in relationship with my parents and stay in college.
Regarding welfare, I believe that the Bible addresses the issue in the context of supporting widows. If you notice, when widows had family that could support them, it was the family's duty to support them, unless they were young and might remarry.
It does not honor my parents to disown them and in the process leave myself - part of my family's namesake - in a bind, nor does disowning my parents demonstrate love to them.
Additionally, the Scriptures also teach the virtues and spiritual gifts of wisdom and discernment. It is unwise for young people with supportive family and no other means to support themselves to disown their family.
So, when I consider the Scriptures as a whole, it would seem to me that in my particular context, it was actually highly-inappropriate and quite possibly largely unbiblical for me to have disowned my parents.
But, that was specific to my particular situation, and is predicated in part on the fact that my natural relationship with my parents was relatively healthy, loving and tight-knit, lacking in abuse. We were also all Christians, so there was no sense of being unequally-yoked.
So, I think that yes, it is important to honor the Lord; but I think that it is likewise important to exercise wisdom and compassion in so doing.
With regards to compassion, I apologize where I use a harsh tone toward y'all, and I wish that I did not feel the need to document what I do; however, my greater concern is for those who have been abused and who have, for the most part, not had a voice.
Frankly, I look forward to the day that none of this be necessary.
Oh yeah, and for those of you who think it's OK to disown your parents: what about the Bible passage stating that relatives who do not take care of the widows in their families are actually worse than unbelievers? How do you all handle that? Because that's in the Bible, too, like it or not.
DeleteI am so happy to hear that Antioch Church is dangerous to the people on this blog. Every church that follows Jesus passionately is dangerous to the lukewarm and unbelieving. The Pharisees and the Sadducees hated Jesus because of the miracles and His doctrines seemed blasphemous to them. The kingdom of heaven is a supernatural kingdom and only those who are born of the Spirit can see it and enjoy it. Jesus hates religion. The only people that caused Him to respond with intense anger were religious people. When you see a church like Antioch that is devoted to Jesus, devoted to winning the lost, and is going to the nations and bearing fruit for the kingdom of God, jump on board because that kind of holy devotion to the Lord is rare in the U.S. I have been walking with Jesus for thirty years and Antioch is one of the most healthy churches I have ever experienced or been associated with, and I have been associated with many different denominations over the years. The fact that someone would devote a blog to defaming a vibrant, successful church reveals the apostasy of the person who launched it. You must be filled with the Spirit to walk with Jesus and the people who love Him.
ReplyDeleteSo you're saying that I must be lukewarm and unbelieving because I don't agree with Antioch's methods? In my years of experience at Antioch before I left, it was very clear that a large majority of people there were hero-worshiping, not God or Jesus, but Jimmy or Carl or some other minister or leader in the church. I saw many college students who began attending here lose touch with reality, over-interpreting the Bible to the point that even simple things were misconstrued from their very clear meaning. Many of these same college students forgot what they were at Baylor for, wasting four years and their parent's money to just up and become a missionary when they graduated. Many of them even break off with their parents because they don't see them as "believing" as them because they don't understand Antioch's methods or teachings as compared to pretty much any standard church. Or the fact that often times Lifegroup Leaders are ill-equipped to handle leading a group of students their own age without the proper training or skills to do so, and that I have seen on multiple occasions throughout the church abuse their power.
DeleteI once knew a girl who was told by her leader that they were to be married according to God's will. When she wanted nothing of it, he kicked her out of the group and spread hurtful rumors around the church about her. Another friend of mine had a leader who constantly (and poorly) lied to him about major life events or even the most meaningless topics. Another friend had a leader who misappropriated funds they were using for charitable donations from their Lifegroup. These leaders must surely have been following Jesus when doing these things, right?
Don't even get me started on all of the undocumented medical miracles that happen there. Every year on the Awaken trip 100s of people are cured of bodily aches and diseases and sometimes even exorcisms are performed. Notice how it's never made national headlines or medically documented by anyone? Typically, if it's anything chronic the symptoms resume within an hour. Why is it only Antioch that seems to be able to do these things? No other church around Waco seems to be able to do so. None of the other churches I've attended since leaving Antioch or before my time there seem to be able too either. What is so special about Antioch makes it the only church where these things can happen? Surely God loves all churches and not just Antioch enough to give them this capability.
By you comment, it seems as though you are saying if you don't 100% support Antioch's or any other passionate church's beliefs and practices (regardless of how many of them are biblically sound) to a T, you are lukewarm and unbelieving. All your comment really does is prove that almost all Antioch attendees have dangerously fallen into groupthink and are incapable of thinking for themselves anymore. I've seen a lot of the things people have mentioned (not necessarily their experience itself but similar experiences with others) in this blog happen with my own eyes at Antioch and many lives damaged or hurt because of it.
I must just not be filled with the Spirit enough to understand.
Yay! Someone else has made it out of ACC with a brain. The level of pride and self-love at ACC reminds of a pot-smoking friend I had in college...you could walk into his apartment and immediately forget why you were there and who you were...it didn't matter that you never smoked the wacky tabacky...the effects were quick. ACC is the land of the lotus eaters...you need a friend to break you out of there because their smoky, toxic ideology is enough to render you mentally impotent. Kudos to you poster....for waking up.
DeleteThen who are you, if you feel so strongly? Why hide behind anonymous?
DeleteI feel so strongly and also remain anonymous because my family is still attending ACC, and I do not wish to cause them any additional harm than what they're already receiving. I grieve for them daily.
DeleteInteresting that on two separate occasions, I have seen posts seeking to uncover the identity of anonymous posters. I wonder why?
DeleteSeems fairly obvious that a perceived exodus from a cult would be a scarey thing.
thetruthwilloutblog, Why do you seek the identity of the poster? prayer request? Seems kind of intimidating, is that your intention?
If you must, post an argument that is capable of refuting the claim of an eye witness. He thinks its a cult and he, like all of us, will give an account for his witness.
Cults are a tricky little bit of business. No one thinks they are in a cult until they realize they are in a cult and leave.
That is the point, do not presume that you are so on top of your game that you could not be deceived. In the last days, if were possible, even the very elect would be deceived. We are charged to be watchful and sober minded.
The interesting thing to consider, if later, the ACC defenders realize that they were indeed in a cult and treated another with disrespect for trying to help, are you one who gathers, or one who scatters? If any man thinks he is taking a stand, be careful that he does not fall.
Let every man work out his own salvation with fear and trembling. Right?
May God bless all those that have been hurt by the cults and may everyone caught in the trap of any cult be freed by our lord and savior Jesus Christ.
Thank you, Anon. Wise and kind words. = )
DeletePro-ACC Anon from 2-6-14:
DeleteHow are you so sure that Antioch herself is free of Pharisaical religiosity? Frankly, the devotion I observed at Antioch struck me as, well, not all that dissimilar at times from the attitude of the religious leaders of Jesus' day.
I hope that's not the case. I wouldn't want it to be.
I don't mind you calling me "lukewarm". I may very well be - I mean, I did mostly revert to Mainline Protestantism. I do apologize where I might inadvertently lead some folks astray as I continue in my own faith journey. That is not something I would want, either; but my faith journey is ongoing.
But, I don't think it's fair to call folks like me unbelievers just yet. Jesus cares about us, and He may end up saving us, even despite you viewing our weak faith with contempt.
With all due respect, I would rather that my faith and character be evaluated by Christ. I believe that He cares about us a whole heck of a lot.
I have been highly involved at Antioch in nearly every possible way for over 8 years. I have been extremely close to many leaders over the years and I have experienced nearly every possible thing that concerns this church movement. I love God with all my heartm his love and presence captures my heart daily. BUT I have experienced an extreme amount of anxiety and feelings of condemnation due to the dynamics involved with being a member of Antioch. I will say that I do not believe most of these situations were intentionally caused by the leaders,such as Jimmy,Carl or Vincent among other leaders who are overall seeking to love God and others. Instead most of the hurtful or 'cultish' experiences I've had are with leaders such as Lifegroup leaders/Elevate Training school leaders/ mentors/worship leaders. Honestly, not all, but many of the people in these positions are not motivated by love but rather by pride and the thrill that comes with power/fame and authority. Overall, I believe this church can become a source of great grief and pain if you become highly involved in all that is offered. At some point you can lose your own identity and ability to think for yourself. My advice is: NEVER GIVE ANYONE AUTHORITY OVER YOUR LIFE. "Submission to authority" and the emphasis on Lifegroups and "discipleship" can become a controlling and hurtful experience. Trust your own ability to hear God. Don't ever let someone tell you that if you don't submit to their advice you are in turn not submitting tp God. There is so much pressure to "go with the flow". I have had friends kicked out of this church because the didn't abide by Antioch's way of doing things. Yet , believe it or not, I am not bitter or angry at Antioch because I know that there is not perfect church and I know that people are humnans that make mistakes. But I will say that the realities of the error of some of the dynamics of Antioch are real and they can have emotionally traumatic results that could take years to recover from. This post is not to promote "bashing" in any way but rather to confirm that many of the issues previously addressed are indeed true and those attending this church should be sure to use wisdom in becoming highly involved.
ReplyDeleteThank you. Out of all the comments posted on this site yours is the most well stated and accurate according to my 1yr experience at ACC.
DeleteWow. Thank you for sharing.
DeleteThanks, Anon of 3-28-14 / 11:25 PM,
DeleteGood points. I mostly agree / confirm.
Only area where I'd disagree is that I believe that all the leadership shares responsibility in the control stuff. Frankly, I'm pretty sure that I've heard stuff from Jimmy Seibert & co. that has been kinda controlling / manipulative of people's emotions and such at times, so I hold them all responsible. If nothing else, I've never known any of them to do much to stem the problems, which is itself a problem. The leaders want the authority without the responsibility of meaningful accountability. It don't work like that. That's not what happens in healthy churches.
Over the years I've heard Jimmy speak multiple times regarding whom he and the ACC staff (by ACC policy) are directly accountable to, by name, in & outside the church .
DeleteYeah, and I would argue that their accountability system is largely a joke -
Deleteit doesn't seem to me to be a whole lot more than window dressing to make it appear as if they are accountable - because they only select "like-minded" people - who, to my knowledge, aren't exactly really over them in authority, anyway, because they'll be more like peers, not uplines, unlike the case with everyone under their authority.
Unless I'm mistaken, I believe that at least a couple of their advisors have served with organizations that have likewise sometimes been accused of spiritual abuse - in manners similar to Antioch.
Need names? Floyd McClung Jr. and I think Gus Hunter, both of whom I believe have come from YWAM, one such organization.
Very little of any real substance tends to come about when problems arise at Antioch, perhaps because a lot of these high-up leaders don't even realize the extent to which problems can and perhaps do occur.
For example, an Antioch elder responsible for sending me home? He was shocked to learn many years later when I reached out to him that one of my leaders pressured me to disown my parents. He apparently had no idea what had been going on in the background I dealt with at Antioch.
Similarly, when I shared my story with another old Antioch leader of mine, he had no idea that a different leader had kinda prevented me from leaving the church in good standing when I decided ACC was not for me.
So, look, as far as I'm concerned, their accountability system seems to be broken on multiple levels.
It can also be insanely difficult to reach out to a high-ranking leader if you have a personal beef with them.
And, Seibert is very skilled at portraying Antioch as positive to folks outside the church, particularly in the media.
So, things may not always be as they seem at Antioch.
Just because someone claims to be accountable to someone, doesn't necessarily mean that that accountability is actually all that effective.
Anyway, for anyone interested, I recommend the old 1988 book edited by Dr. Flavil Yeakley, The Discipling Dilemma. As I recall, I think it touches briefly on the difference in accountability structure among senior leaders vs. everyone else in Shepherding / Discipleship Movement churches.
I also recommend learning about the Shepherding Movement and the problems that arose, because the Discipleship Movement that Antioch is a part of seems to struggle with roughly the same problems.
Everyone posting on this blog have some good points and some bad points. I have attended Antioch from nearly the beginning of it's formation and have experienced many of the things people are referring to. It's freeing to know I'm not alone in my hurt or struggle with some of the issues with Antioch.
ReplyDeleteYour post makes me wonder if I know who you are...and also how many of my friends at Antioch feel the same way but don't have the courage to talk about it in the open because of fear of rejection and "persecution"
DeleteAnon of 9-23-14 / 10:42 PM,
DeleteI am so sorry to hear that you guys are too afraid to come forward. I get the fear of persecution and the like. If I were still in Antioch, I'd be terrified if I realized what was going on and felt that I had to come forward or leave. I know, it isn't easy. It's ok. For now, just know that you guys are not alone, and that I for one am not afraid to come forward publicly in y'all's support. Please forgive me for not having done so earlier. You should not have to suffer the way you have and still are. I am a witness to the common problems voiced in this blog. They were real in Antioch-Waco in my day (2000-2005).
I am no longer at Antioch and have chosen to accept that I may lose all my "friends" in the movement in coming forward as a dissenter..... but those who truly are my friends won't desert me, but will continue to love and respect me, despite coming forward. Stay strong, y'all -- and know that you are not alone. God bless.
I am so thankful for this blog. Antioch, like many churches, has a lot of hurt people who feel trapped and afraid to leave. It's hard to untangle oneself from the teachings and beliefs that extreme churches indoctrinate into their members.When I first left Antioch it was really hard but it was the best decision for my emotional wellbeing. I don't think someone can realize how unhealthy it is to be really involved in this church until they spend enough time away from the constant indoctrination and manipulation to feel the genuine love of God. Like many other churches, many of the leaders are hypocritical and lead a double lifestyle. But I don't blame them because the extreme religious expectations placed on leaders is unrealistic and truly unattainable. I think some of the leaders are somewhat victimized by the extremism and cult-like practices. I am thankful for this blog because it has the potential to help other people put words to the darkness they feel but are too afraid to expose. I think more people should share their thoughts and experience, especially if you feel misunderstood or trapped in a church or lifestyle that is unhealthy. My heart hurts for everyone who experiences hurt,anxiety or depression as a result of religious organizations and churches. Know that you are loved and not alone. I'm not so ignorant to think that my experience applies to everyone at Antioch. This church movement is huge and there are thousands of people involved. I've known a few genuine people who aren't caught up in the extremism but for the most part the organization as a whole has extreme potential to cause havoc on someone emotional health and spiritual wellbeing.
DeleteI challenge you to provide an example of an ACC staffers "double lifestyle."
DeleteProof enough?http://www.wacotrib.com/news/police/former-antioch-pastor-arrested-on-prostitution-charge/article_5fb6ee3d-609e-5b5e-a796-a2a6d963b7ba.html
DeleteIt may be rare to find it so well-documented; but wow, good timing, Anon!
DeleteEd Espinosa - former Antioch pastor - prostitution. Even Antioch-Waco had a post about this.
But in all honestly, I think in most cases the "double-lifestyle"-type deal would likely be difficult to document.
I think that the main issue tends to be issues related to control, which in my experience and observation, a lot of Evangelical types don't seem to recognize as sufficiently unbiblical to address - although perhaps that attitude may change in time.
When I moved to Waco a few years ago, I went sporadically to Antioch for about three years. Sunday services were awesome (although what other people have said about the service being based on feelings and emotions is very true), but the things outside of church (specifically the life groups) just kind of rubbed my the wrong way. I remember my cousin took me to her life group for the first time, and about an hour into it, we were told to pair off and tell the other person a sin that we're currently indulging in. Then we were supposed to write our sins down and burn the paper so that there would be tangible proof that we'll try to stop, and we have to be held accountable by the other person. After that, I only went a few more times to be nice.
ReplyDeleteA lot of my extended family went to Antioch and two of them became really involved, to the point that they alienated people in their lives. From what I understood while they were involved, they both became almost dependent on the relationships formed, and those relationships basically became their whole lives. They don't go anymore and haven't really talked bad about Antioch, but have mentioned vaguely that weird things go on there.
I don't know that I'd go so far as saying that it's a cult, but some of the members can definitely leave you feeling very uncomfortable, although they are all really nice.
Wow. That confession/burning/accountability exercise in lifegroup sounds so much like....James 5:16 What rubs ME the wrong way is my own sin & resistance to confess & repent of it.
DeleteYes... and no. That may be one way to handle things; but there are different styles of confession and accountability in the Church. So long as we adhere to the Scriptures - in this case James 5:16 - then it should not matter how we go about it. If one way seems weird to us, in theory, we should be able to try a different church.
DeleteWhat bugged me about confession at Antioch was that it sometimes was used to condemn people and prevent them from serving in ministry, even when they were doing what they could to repent of their sins already.
Seriously, I got so sick of the segregation between the alleged "healed" leaders and those of us who could never end up "healed" - who, despite our best efforts, could never receive the "healing" we supposedly would - and thus would be barred from ministry. It was like a group of "haves" vs. a group of "have nots". Not my cup 'o tea, but thanks, anyway.
I also found that people tended to learn more about my sin nature than my personality, interests, hopes, dreams, etc. They knew my sins, but they did not really know me. And that made my relationships with people rather awkward.
Man, in retrospect, it makes me glad that I never ended up discipling anyone while I was there.
But anyway, Anon, glad that you are bothered by your sin and resistance to confession and repentance. That's a good problem to have. May God help you in those areas. = )
The first time I attended Antioch was in 2002. I remember feeling the presence of God like I had never experienced in other churches as well as Biblical teaching that stirred me to want to know and love God more. But a LOT has changed since then. The church has expanded and with that has come significant issues regarding the way the church is run. Onve you have been a part of Antioch for awhile you will realize you will have a hard time leaving. I believe this is due to the fact that it does indeed possess "cult like" which can specifically be identified by feeling emotionally or spiritually dependent or controlled by leaders. The leaders call it "community" but it is not healthy and I regret the fact that I have not had the courage to leave the church. Since leaving the church would result in me losing all the friendships I've made over the years. If youare someone who has ever been highly involved at Antioch and then left....you will know what I mean. The main issue is that Lifegroups are more dysfunctional and hurtful than helpful or faith building. And the "community" tends to be co dependent relationships that weakens a person's own ability to hear from God.
ReplyDeleteWOW do I understand this. So horribly well. I left over 10 years ago, and I still feel haunted by the loss of "community" that I mistook for God's presence. You can leave. Your life will feel off-kilter for a long while, but ultimately you mean too much to deteriorate there any longer. Give yourself permission to be a human being and GET OUT. The world is a big place...and God made it. It's not sinful or unholy to live in it...quite the opposite.
DeleteAnons of 9-23-14/10:30PM and 9-25-14/10:13 PM,
DeleteI resonate with both of your comments. Most of us probably have no idea until quite some time after we've left. In my case, it's taken most of a decade to come to accept this. God bless you guys for not being afraid to speak up. Your words may someday mean something to someone besides just me.
This blog has a lot of insight regarding what you might encounter at some point if you are highy involved at Antioch for an extended period of time. If you can relate to anything shared on this blog, just know you're not alone and that there are likely hundreds of other people feeling the same thing but afraid to verbalize it.
ReplyDeleteAnon of 5-8-15 / 8:44 PM,
DeleteYeah, it makes me sick that folks are probably afraid to speak up.
Y'all,
For what it's worth, I just created a closed Facebook group called Antioch Dissenters. It's there if you want it. No worries if not. = )
Ok, that is old... and somehow, even sometimes when people would try to find the group, they could not. I don't understand why. But whatever. I'm not typically on Facebook anymore, due to security breaches. But hopefully you all will still have this blog. I hope it helps. = )
DeleteRecovering from Antioch is a thing. And here I thought I was crazy. I related to your whole story and do feel that I am simply recovering from them. They are definitely a cult. And haven't had a single communication with me since I started asking questions. And recieveing visions to back them up about how they run things. They have completely cut me out of any kind of existence. To think I spent a year with these people. I think God saved us. Actually. Because how they have obviously treated people are so flipping "cut out" it's crazy. Like it's from some kind of book!? You have literally told my story. I have only just found my way back to God. God does not punish his loves. He corrects them, the same way our parents who love us do. I'm blown away by the similarities we all have experienced and I'm in South Africa which is even more scary!!! Praying for you all. And thank you so much for writing. Lots of love. Xxx
ReplyDeleteI am so sorry you were cut off. It is so painful to be ostracized for reasons you do not understand. It has been many years since I left, and I still feel a pit in my stomach about the people I miss. I feel immense sadness for their state of supression and controledness. I pray one day they will each venture back into the real world and experience God in a real way. All my love, anon, as you travel this unexplored path back to wholeness. -RP
DeleteI'm really kinda sad reading this blog. I've been attending one of the ACC plants in Florida for quite some time and I've experienced nothing but good. I have accountability and prayer partners. I have a home to go to in one of the ACC houses next year. I was raised Baptist which is totally different from ACC. And I've been hurting for so long. But ACC has made me feel stronger in my relationship with God. They are filled with the Holy Spirit and accept your flaws and try to help you grow stronger. So I have to say that it upsets me reading these posts. Because it's the exact opposite that I've experienced. How can a group that's brought me closer to God and made me so much more joyful be so wrong? The staff is so loving and the people are so filled with the spirit and helped me out of what could have been a suicide attempt.
ReplyDeleteAgain, this is the Florida plant. So may be different. But still.
I'm glad they were there for you when you needed help. Sorry that our stories are hard for you; but our stories are part of the Antioch Movement, too.
DeleteFor what it's worth, God can use imperfect and sometimes even abusive / cultish groups to bring about some good.
Most folks don't realize it, but even cults actually sometimes in some ways do some good for society and members. It just all depends.
Antioch Community Church is not a cult! I attend the church and have had nothing but good experiences. People say it is a cult because they are accustomed to passive Christianity. They believe that going to church on Sundays is enough to get you into heaven. It's not! God wants a relationship with you and ACC teaches its members how to develop that. You have mentorship/accountability partners to improve your daily walk with Christ. Since attending I have been taught how to seek out God on my own, independently of any particular church or its congregation.Losing yourself in the church is not the fault of the church. And knowing the word of God for yourself will any sort of manipulation from the enemy.
ReplyDeleteAntioch Community Church is not a cult! I attend the church and have had nothing but good experiences. People say it is a cult because they are accustomed to passive Christianity. They believe that going to church on Sundays is enough to get you into heaven. It's not! God wants a relationship with you and ACC teaches its members how to develop that. You have mentorship/accountability partners to improve your daily walk with Christ. Since attending I have been taught how to seek out God on my own, independently of any particular church or its congregation.Losing yourself in the church is not the fault of the church. And knowing the word of God for yourself will prevent any sort of manipulation from the enemy/cults/false prophets.
ReplyDeleteAnon, have you looked at criteria in social psychology used to evaluate whether or not a group is a cult?
DeleteOver 10 years ago I went to ACC when I was at Baylor, then AMI, and after the mission field. While on the mission field I lost my faith for several reasons and now am agnostic. I heard the whole time I went to ACC that it was a cult and never really agreed. I actually think I may know the poster of the original story although I don't know any details of her experience. If it was her, she came to me when I was at Baylor telling me ACC was a cult offering to share her story, and I smiled at her to her face and blew her off. If it wasn’t her, I knew someone with a similar story and a lot of others who left the church for similar reasons. Really, I still didn't think ACC was a cult when I left because I still believed ACC was a Christian Church. It was, however, a very a high-pressure, controlling, legalistic, close minded, manipulative situation with a lot of leader worship, so in that respect it was cultish. People didn’t literally worship leaders, but they spoke about them way to highly, almost as if they were perfect. When I left the mission field, very few people ever reached out to me including friends and mentors I had for 4+ years which really didn't surprise me at all, partly because I kinda disappeared and partly because at the time when people left Antioch they were looked at almost as the enemy since they didn't agree, even though I think they were all still Christian. I'm sure a ton of people were told to stay away from me when I left. Definitely a "shun" vibe, haha. Thinking about it now, it was probably a lot easier for me than someone who was still Christian because I split from the Faith and Church at the same time.
ReplyDeleteI think the hardest part was that when I left I stopped serving the mission of the Church and the people in it, some who I was extremely close to, and as a result I became useless to them. It felt like I was a discarded tool when it lost its function. This, however, had nothing to do with my value to myself which never changed. The experience made me become a stronger person.
Christian or not, your spirituality is your own and shouldn’t be too deeply influenced by or dependent on anyone else. People will always disappoint you and in the end you only really have yourself to rely on unless you are extremely lucky. Be strong in yourself.
Read the parable of the wheat and the tares (weeds) that Jesus told His disciples. IHOP KC, Bethel in Redding, and from what I am reading ACC all have wheat and tares mixed in, but it seems to me as if the tares are easier to see in these particular places due to the stronger manifestations of Holy Spirit, and Satan's likely attempt to imitate these or discredit them or discredit God's great work done by them. Listen to what is good about them, heed what negative things are said, and rely on God and the Bible and other believers for discernment when considering these types of places. I am considering trying antioch in FL, but am cautious as well. Thanks for all of your comments and concerns. Remember that all who are in Christ are united, and also that there are impostors who appear to be in Christ but are not part of the fold. Don't become disillusioned with God or any particular church because of the impostors, pray for them, that they may join in the family through repentance. -HK
ReplyDeleteI went to ACC-Waco for 4 years. I moved away from Waco, and in 2016 I moved back. I am now in therapy, trying to recover from the spiritual abuse I experienced there.
ReplyDeleteIn a cult the cost of membership never stops growing.
That is what happened to me. I spent 15 + hours doing church related activities my Freshman year at Baylor and that wasn't enough. I was made into a Life Group Leader and forced to sign up for things like welcome week at Baylor to recruit freshman to come to Antioch. I gave up my spring break plans to go on a mission trip. One where I was forced to share the gospel and knock on doors inviting people to "know God". I then gave up my theater major because I was not prioritizing God. I sent emails to people forcing my beliefs on others. After becoming a life group leader, they started grooming me to be a section leader. Luckily, I met my now-husband, who helped me to see that not only was I constantly speaking "Christianese", I was also just doing and saying anything they wanted me to.
What hurts me now so deeply, is all of the people I judged. Thinking if they didn't go to Antioch, then they weren't really Christians. I used the name of God so flippantly. Telling people what God wanted them to know. This had been done to me over and over again and I was taught to do the same to others. Someone else in the responses said that there are many layers. I completely agree. But ultimately, their is one mold they are trying to squeeze you into. Someone like me, who is outgoing and personable is a great target. I needed help in my life and instead of teaching me about boundaries, I was told to change my clothes, my major, my schedule, my everything to fit their mold.
They couldn't believe I would join a sorority, as it would take more time away from the church. I was asked to live in a D-House or discipleship house where seniors live with Freshman and teach them how to I've a godly life etc. I didn't do it and was judged for it.
A very hard moment for me, that I still have to work through is when my "mentor" fiercely encouraged me to fast every week without telling anyone. In addition, she would take me to Wal-Mart to hand out tracks (packets that say how to achieve peace with God) and share the gospel to people who were in the medicine aisle there. This was because if they were getting medicine, then they would obviously need God to heal them. I was forced to pray for healing over them while my mentor watched me from the other aisle to make sure I completely the task. She never asked me if that was something I wanted to do. Only told me that "faith without works is dead."
I have now realized that this was spiritual abuse. All of it. I am actually shocked that I still believe in God. I have been trained so deeply from the members of the church, including the leaders that simple things like praying are so hard for me. Everything is tangled up as God will only love me if I do all of the things. "spend time with God", "give up my life for the sake of the kingdom" etc. I am currently working through all of this with a therapist. I suggest those who have been hurt, do the same.
I guess it's best to forgive so we can heal ourselves. Whatever happened was NOT okay, but I am choosing now to give my pain and anger from this whole experience to our Heavenly Father. I pray for others hurt by this group to do the same whenever you feel ready. There is freedom and peace that comes with it for those of us who hurt and angry. Don't hold on to that for too long but see this for what it is. They are going to one day see, and understand, with Father God's help. Blessings to all of you, and for those who caused me hurt before.
ReplyDeleteAmen, Bright Eyes.
ReplyDeleteI would add only that the Lord heal those who seek healing - and provide those who need it, access to the information and healthy environment they'd need in order to heal.
Lastly, may the Lord keep in Him those of us who would like to remain in Him, but who seek to ditch the spiritual abuse that is religion.
Someone in the comments above proclaimed that some folks are religious types, vs. Antioch that is allegedly more spiritual.
In my experience and observation, in reality, there seemed to be a lot of religion / legalism / striving at Antioch - maybe not across the board, but it seemed pervasive to me at least on a subtle level.
Thank You, Jesus for remembering me and delivering me in due time! I'm looking forward to this new lease on life as You've redeemed my life. = )
All the best.
- Lynda
ACC has been very bad for our son who we could not get out of there for 4 years. He has in essence become a expert on Christianity yet knows nothing about theology and religion, goes around asking people if he can pray for them and his ego has inflated in a non-humble way. He has been a mission leader twice and a life group leader. When I ask him why a mission trip over 6,000 dollars per person over twice to 3x what other churches spend and they have quotas to fill he does not have an answer. When I ask for an accounting of the tens of thousands of dollars he has raised for them he has no answer and refuses to ask, he is actually frighted to ask the church leaders at ACC. They do not subscribe with guidestar or publish any accounting data, they are a money grab. I have a degree in theology and I can say that he has learned no theology there, little religion and a scant narrow interpretation of Christianity of a feel good judgemental style. Gays are sinners (not misguided), anyone who speaks out or questions the leadership or materialism of ACC is a sinner. HE refuses to think about the leaders who were involved locally with prostitution and sex trafficking. Every service I go to they are selling things and asking for more money. The missions are like adventure vacations and he comes back with a tan and likes to run around now with no shirt on, picked up a ton of vanity on these "service" trips. They get in time at the beach, play music, sight see and turn over thousands of dollars to ACC all in the name of God. Cult or not this is not a sound spiritual journey and they do little to nothing for the Waco community. They prey on the college kids and the parents who fund them. It may or may not be a cult but it for sure is a prosperity gospel networked mega style money grab church. I doubt Jesus would charge as much for mission service (he would charge nothing), he would be sympathetic to the gay miss-guided, he would not keep finances secret and he would share all of what he collected, not support vanity or lack of humility. This place is just as bad as any cult, when these folks go on the mission trips they set a poor example of true Christian service, they send a message of materialistic vain Americans who want to feel good about themselves, visit on an adventure then go back to America never to be heard from again with a does of feel good about themselves. They often come back with new girl friends or boy friends even. I have done Peace Corp work and worked with many NGO's and other true missionary programs that share how they spend money and what they give and build foundations for the long term locally like hospitals, schools, homes. ACC is just another version of Jim Backer style exploitation of a great bunch of young people and parents who can't pull the kids out... like me. I tried but frankly he was brain washed. God Bless you all
ReplyDeleteThe prior comment with the reference to the Peace Corps etc.. was mine. I did not intend it to be anonymous, I though it would show my gmail address which is auderus@gmail.com wouldn't be right to be anonymous when I said such hard to hear but true things about ACC. They actually had a leader involved in a sex trafficking prostitution ring in Waco and didn't do anything about it, what great leaders they are
ReplyDeleteHere is more data on the leadership at ACC, this man was a community outreach leader woking with college kids for over 8 years at ACC, he was side by side with Jimmy for over 8 years. Wow what a testament to the faith developed at ACC. Before he handed himself over to authorities, Edward Ignacio Espinosa, 41, resigned from his position as a community outreach pastor at Antioch Community Church, the Waco Tribune-Herald reports. He only resigned after he was caught and arrested!!! Great church helping the local communnity
ReplyDeleteEdward Ignacio was involved in using prostitution and helping sex trafficking in WACO, he was convicted and also confessed after being caught. What a great example to the service mission workers to other countries SEX TRAFFICKING!
ReplyDeleteI would love to hear ACC explain this treatment of women and the poor away, sex trafficking and prostitution. Check the newspapers it's all out there.
ReplyDeleteMy time at ACC has hurt me more than anything in my entire life and I have been through a lot!
ReplyDeleteBut there is something about spiritual manipulation that is the worst of all. I came in during a vulnerable time in my life when I was yearning to get out of the drugs, abuse, and deep depression. When I first came I felt this was my home. The deeper I got into it and attended the discipleship school the more confused I became... about everything.
When guest speakers would come in and pray over everyone who ended up on the ground convulsing and weeping I didn't experience this. When they did their prophetic practicing I never knew who's voice was in my head. I felt I was trying soon hard. It breeds a place where if you heal someone you are better than, if you hear prophetic words you are elevated.
You are NOT allowed to think for yourself and when you start asking the real hard questions you must have a "heart problem". So I always felt like my heart was in a bad place.
Then I got married to someone who went to the church there... he ended up working there for 2 years. They used him up like a dirty rag. They used us both up like we were just dirty rags. I had to work 4 jobs at one point to support us and we were still only barely getting by and they still did not care to help us while my husband labored for free. I hated this. I wanted my husband to get out so much. But I became angry at the church and the "leaders" in the church. I felt so degraded and it hurt our marriage so much for those years. My husband was "blinded" in the ACC cult like ways and I had always felt like I wasn't spiritual enough. I love Jesus. But I always felt because I didn't volunteer enough or wasn't as heavily involved because I was working so much that I was simply not a good enough christian. After my husband decided to stop working there he fell into a year long depression. No one would reach out to him. After he worked there for free and full time I might add. It took him a year to get free from the hold ACC had on him. I am so happy where we are now but I still feel the pain from this church. I wish they would stop.
I know when I went. Prophecy and Healing was emphasized more then the Gospel. They believe anyone can learn to Do prophecy. The gift of prophecy is a gift. Also, they had a man from Bethel come and teach on Holy Laughter in the d-school I was in, and they had Kris Vollotton from Bethel come to preach on a Sunday service. They teach Bible lite messages. I won’t say they are a cult, but they endorse one of the main NAR churches, is concerning.
ReplyDeleteIt’s no surprise to see others get sucked into the Antioch Waco cult, chewed up, and spit out. Yeah, Pastor Jimmy "Silver Tongue" Seibert and his whole gang of wolves in sheep’s clothing. I went there for over a decade. At first, I thought it was gonna be all God centered and filled with the Holy Spirit, but turned out to be super sketchy.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, dude's sermons were like brainwashing on overdrive. All guilt-trippin' you into “Giving to God” your whole bank account (someone’s gotta pay for Jimmy's mega Arch expansion fund). All worship the new symbol for Christ, the Holy Arch! Dissent? Forget about it. Question Jimmy's word and you're suddenly Satan's spawn, banished to the social Siberia of Antioch Waco. Talk about a toxic church.
Then there was the whole "community" thing. More like a community cult of control freaks, spying on each other like hawks. Disclosing deepest secrets you thought were private were fair game for public floggings under the guise of "spiritual guidance." My best friend got the boot for asking where all the discipleship school money was going. Poor girl, looked like Jimmy himself had sucked the soul out of her, (and maybe sucked her out even more.)
I saw the red flags emerging when they started pressuring me to sell my car for another "donation." Nah, fam, this ain't Monopoly, I ain't trading my wheels for Jimmy's Monopoly money. Not everyone of us poor college students can rake in multimillions like these rich pastors. Not everyone can afford to pay thousands to your little fake discipleship “schools” and trick family and friends to fund Antioch’s International Movement of Evangelistic Tourism. Either go on useless glorified mission vacation trips or sneak into dangerous and impoverished countries and expect us to change the world. In your inflated dreams, Jimmy “Snakey” Seibert. So I did the only sane thing – get the hell out of that abusive cult.
It wasn't easy, rebuilding my social life outside the Antioch bubble. The nightmares still whisper Seibert’s Satanic voice, reminding me of the mental prison I escaped. But every sunrise feels like a victory, like reclaiming my own damn mind.
People who are locked in this church cannot see beyond their own bubble. Antioch Waco is a self-praising self-insulated selfish church. Seriously why the hell would anyone need to read old Jimmy’s twisted books when I have the Bible itself? As if the Bible wasn’t enough for Mr. Self Promoter. To anyone still stuck in that gilded cage, listen up: Jimmy's house of cards is built on fear and lies. You deserve better. Ditch the Kool-Aid, grab your dignity, and run. Trust me, the air outside tastes like freedom, not incest and manipulation.
And just a friendly reminder to Jimmy and his blinded cronies, all the abusive affiliates of the Antioch International Movement of Churches: Keep spinning that web of lies, you’re living a delusion, a twisted shadow of Jimmy’s depiction of God. The Antioch Movement, lol, too bad it’s not a God Movement. May God have pity on you all. Peace out.
The goal of this 2020 Instagram account is to raise awareness of people's harmful experiences at Antioch Community Church:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.instagram.com/antiochcommunitychurch/