But no one has a place to share or process their thoughts when they are thrown out of the machine of "a Passion for Jesus and His Purposes in the Earth." They shrink away. Some burn out fast and leave with a bang! Others fade slowly, taking time to choose a different way. Any who speak out about something being wrong are quickly discredited as having "sin issues" or something similar to make sure their voices do not scare the flock of young, Baylor students anticipating the next World Mandate.
When I visit Antioch on occasion, I still see the same thing rolling on with little regard to all the broken people "the movement" has left along the way. Jimmy Seibert is still teaching the same things. Lifegroups still go the same way. Churches are still being planted the same way. Jimmy always says that you can judge a ministry by its fruit. I think that is true!
I don't think that the church or leadership honestly looks at any of the rotten fruit that comes from the ministry. Everything good is because of their passion for Jesus. Everything bad is because of a leader's sin issue. They never stop to examine if there is theological beliefs or organizational process that cause these failures.
This blog is just a small attempt to examine some of these issues. It is a place for dissent because none is welcomed in the church. Please use the comments section to raise your own questions, give your own examples, share experiences or disagree with me.
Tell me about what prompted to start the blog, or your personal story. I would like to hear it.
ReplyDeleteWell, this blog is old, and I'm not Chilled Zealot, but my blog Wandering Dolly Sods is my personal dissident blog on Antioch-Waco / the Antioch International Movement of Churches. I intended it to be sort-of a follow-up to Chilled Zealot's blog. It is active at the time of my response, but you guys will have to let me know or show me if you can comment on it. In my blog, I have worked to post some on recovery, as well as share some of my experiences. I think that some posts *may* be hard-hitting, if I wrote them ok. If you read my perspective, it'll at least get you inside the head of a former Antiocher. I apologize for the lengthiness, any rawness, repetition and inaccuracies. I am doing the best I can, as I relive my sometimes traumatic past with Antioch. I spent a lot of time this summer, prepping the blog for those of you new to Antioch, as of this fall, 'cause I know that Antioch-Waco likes to take advantage of Baylor's Welcome Week. So, I figured that I would, too. I may have just wrapped up a short series on Antioch Waco's hierarchy, although I may add more later. I also tackle male covering theology, from a female perspective. There is a lot more I can address, as I have time. I have made an attempt to bring up scriptural objections to Antioch doctrines, to help those of you whose theologies have become messed-up because of Antioch. Here is a link to my blog: http://wanderingdollysods.blogspot.com/ It's a work in progress. Also, for recovering folks: you may wish to check out Religious Trauma Syndrome. I hope to write about that later on my blog, since it may have related to my time in the Antioch Movement. Thanks and God bless.
DeleteOn my dissident blog, what prompted me to write it were a number of factors: reports of abusive practices in multiple churches in the Antioch Movement; my own lengthy recovery; and Antioch- Waco's history of recruiting people who are not aware of how controlling and destructive she can become for some people. I wanted to do what I could to flesh out a bit more the dialog toward recovery that Chilled Zealot started here.
Delete-- er, the Antioch Movement's history of recruiting folks who know little about her ways, my bad....
DeleteI couldn't get beyond the hypocritical, dishonest, evil title/intro to this blog..."I hate ACC and AMI" then the next line is "I don't really hate ACC and AMI."
DeleteA double minded man is unstable in all he does. James 1:8
This blog is prime example of instability.
Y'know, Anon, the title is not intended to be hypocritical, dishonest or evil, nor are we Antioch dissenters intending to be that way. For many of us, this blog has been a godsend -- a definite breath of fresh air, given what some of us went through with Antioch.
DeleteYou want to talk hypocrisy? I was subjected to greater scrutiny as a non-leader at Antioch than many Antioch leaders have been. I know this from personal experience in the extreme difficulties I have often encountered trying to speak with Antioch leaders. Others have at times I think had similar experiences.
Dishonesty? The Antioch Movement has claimed to be non-denominational. This is inaccurate. They follow specific doctrines and practices and generally have a specific church association branding. In my opinion, the leaders of the Antioch Movement have been dishonest in their claims that their church network and congregations have been non-denominational. Those of us who came from other Christian traditions were pressured to conform to Antioch's ways. I witnessed and experienced this firsthand at Antioch-Waco.
Evil? I was not legitimately permitted to leave Antioch-Waco when I recognized that I did not agree with the church. One of my Lifegroup Leaders told me that I would be "rebelling against God" for leaving Antioch for a church that better aligned with my theology and beliefs about Christian relationships. When I shared my testimony with a former pastor of mine in Virginia, he was concerned that what I was subjected to at Antioch may have been evil. What I will say is that it sort-of felt like a form of human trafficking, because I was not free to leave without fear of losing God's favor and possibly my salvation. It was a form of unbiblical control.
You accuse us of instability. All I can say is try going through what us early dissenters have gone through: church abuse with no mental health professionals willing to believe us that our church abused us; the Christian community -- particularly, Evangelical -- shunning us, accusing those who left of sin, when it was not necessarily true; constant accusation of alleged "demonic oppression" / demonization as a result of sins we did not commit or had repented of, even though our Antioch leaders insisted we had not repented; and a sense of coercive persuasion to stay in an environment that deliberately promotes psychologically-dissociative states in the form of "waiting on God" / journaling God's alleged extra-biblical revelations, even as we were led to believe that we would lose God's favor or have some demon jump us if we messed up on some small issue that we were unable to discern, despite our best efforts to please God and Antioch.
You want to accuse of us instability? Consider what we have been through! But honestly, it's comments like yours that simply reaffirm that I made the absolute right choice in leaving and speaking out against Antioch and related groups.
Spiritual abuse is a real deal. Maybe someday you'll understand that.
Now, for the rest of you, since I think Google may soon be shutting down this blog:
DeleteFirst, I will try to save a copy to at least one internet archive site.
Second, I have a few kinda parting remarks I'd like to make as I provide an update on my journey. This will be broken up into sections because it is too lengthy for one response. Here it goes (Lord willing):
PART ONE: Update, 2-10-2019: My old Antioch dissident blog, Wandering Dolly Sods, has been shut down now for I think a little less than a year. Around 2014-2016, there had been another dissident blog, After Leaving Antioch, allegedly by a female former Lifegroup Leader that I briefly had contact with privately.
DeleteThe shutdown of my blog was due to Google / Blogger not making it easy for me to post a disclaimer about Google's privacy policies when visiting the site, to satisfy EU data privacy law. It was not because I was intimidated into shutting it down or wanted to remove it.
Sure, it would be great if these blogs weren't necessary; but with my difficult experiences trying to work things out with leaders in the Antioch Movement in general, including Antioch-Waco, even in February 2019, I still remain concerned that members may continue to end up sporadically severely abused to the point that involvement in the movement may sometimes greatly harm some people and possibly render them unable to contribute effectively to society.
As for the shutting down of the dissident blog After Leaving Antioch, as I recall, I believe that the author was a Baylor student who had to leave Baylor her senior year. She had to transfer out of Baylor because she could not get away from Antioch influence and triggers that of course tend to be everywhere around Baylor and Waco. She transferred to a university out of state.
Unfortunately for her, Antioch showed up around that new college town before she did. That said, it was a newer, less-established Antioch Movement congregation. I got on that local congregation's website and came across some unusually strong, controlling language related to their website's copyright, which suggested to me that at least someone on staff may have controlling tendencies -- tragically, a fairly common trait among a number of Antioch leaders, in my experience.
I've since lost touch with this young lady. She shut down her blog to heal / move on and focus on her studies. I wish her well.
PART TWO: I'm not sure if I wrote this elsewhere here, but for me, the main release from bondage from Antioch occurred probably around March 2017. Up until that point, I had made progress, but was apparently caught up in Antioch's "you are bitter / haven't forgiven if you haven't reconciled" lie. That was Antioch's hidden leash on me, even as I was healing in other areas.
DeleteEvangelicals and Antiochers could use that lie to control me up to then.
I am on here today because I am concerned that the problems in the Antioch Movement may still be continuing. I am seeking for now to preserve this blog for folks who might need this documentation later to heal.
For me, the main break finally came when I read in the Scriptures that believers had a duty not to associate with folks who spread falsehood.
I had confronted multiple Antioch leaders over my concerns. For the most part, there was not much real repentance. At this point, I am particularly concerned when it comes to Antioch founding pastor Jimmy Seibert. The church told me that I was not allowed to approach him, even though I was concerned that he may have possibly publicly spread inaccurate information about people the church has not viewed favorably, based on a couple of publications I have read over the years.
I am also a bit concerned with regards to my old friend and former Antioch-Waco college pastor, Robert Herber, who at last check was the head pastor of Antioch's All People's Church-San Diego, CA. While I was a Baylor student, Robert's twin sisters and I were for a little while in the same Lifegroup. I was kind-of a friend of the family and loved them dearly. For the most part, they are godly and gracious people, and I would say that that most likely extends to Robert's brothers-in-law as well, both Antiochers, I think.
Anyway, Robert wanted me to shut down my blog. He did not understand the need for dissent.
There have been other concerns, too. Most notably, I asked Robert to respond publicly in writing to the old Theophilus Athenaeum concerns in I think the first issue of The Iconoclast, in 2004, I believe -- which in my opinion were somewhat legit concerns, if not entirely legit, although their wording was kinda harsh.
I was a Baylor student when that issue came out, and I think I picked up and read a copy. At last check, they were available in PDF format on a blog.
Anyway, Robert refused to respond publicly in writing. That disappointed me, because I view head pastors as the main leaders of a church. We hold CEOs of corporations accountable. We seek to do the same with politicians. Why wouldn't Christian leaders want to set the example in transparency on such issues? Because it was not a matter of privacy -- it related to concerns regarding institutional beliefs, practices, incidents, etc. -- stuff that I believe should be public knowledge in healthy churches -- topics that should be openly discussed, in my opinion.
Anyway, so it got to the point that I could no longer tolerate the abuse and general lack of repentance -- to me, it was like being expected to submit to, and thus enable the sin of, an abusive husband. I refused to continue to remain party to and complicit in enabling the sin of abuse, so I entrusted Antioch to the Lord, and left in peace, finally pretty much free.
I do not hate Antiochers. I have compassion for them, because I understand why they are mostly unable to view things the way I do now. I mean, I used to have that same difficulty. And, I still have some good friends who serve with Antioch. I will miss them; I wish them well; and I trust that someday when Christ comes back, our friendships will be fully restored.
PART THREE: Throughout this process, I am thankful for how God has been helping me heal, and how He has been working to repurpose my life, since I was not able to pursue a career in my field of choice, due largely to Antioch and related influence in my life around the time I was in college.
DeleteThe journey for me has been long. I have made many enemies in the process, yes; but I have also kinda found my voice and have had to develop a better understanding of who I am as a result of going through the process.
I am trusting the Lord to continue to bless my family as we move forward and seek to involve ourselves in community, whether church community or secular. The Lord still influences my life, even though I am no longer Evangelical, due largely to the enormously negative backlash I endured from the Evangelical community as I sought to heal from church abuse.
I am thankful that some mental health professionals are finally starting to catch on to the reality of church abuse. I did not have the luxury of working with such mental health professionals during the early years of my healing process, and that was probably the number one reason why I was not able to heal quickly and well.
But, I think that sometimes we need pioneers. To that end, I don't mind playing that role -- because I'm thankful when other folks, like Chilled Zealot, go before me to strengthen and encourage me to be able, then, to play my role in helping others.
PART FOUR: My role in helping others might not be evident to you in my comments below, because my emotions could be so raw sometimes. Well, I had almost no support and had to endure an enormous amount of criticism and spiritual abuse even as I sought healing.
DeleteIt felt like being in a war zone.
There were many times when I simply had to fight.
So, I apologize for my less-than-respectful tone.
It would not be until later that I could relax a bit more and not care as much.
Many folks have trouble understanding this, but getting angry and fighting is part of the healing process, because it means that you recognize that something went wrong, and that you are no longer okay with it.
As you read my many comments below, please: pay attention to the date stamps. Those dated between 2015-around 2017 or so are largely reflective of my constant pursuit of healing. I was on this blog frequently to reread the testimonies of other folks spiritually-abused at Antioch, to remind myself that yes, it was worth it to fight -- for them and for those who would end up abused at Antioch after our time.
I do not regret speaking out against Antioch. I might sometimes regret the tone that I've used; but speaking out? No. It was absolutely the right thing to do. People who end up abused in groups like Antioch need a voice -- and need to be reminded that yes, there was a problem, and no, it was, as a general rule, not them, contrary to what Antioch leaders would often say or how they would often make us feel.
PART FIVE: My experience with Antioch, while painful, was ultimately enlightening. There were things about it that were good and that have benefited me spiritually, yes; but I think that the greatest benefit may be that the abuse I endured forced me to learn about the dynamics of unhealthy groups: their thinking and behavior. As I would learn, many groups - religious, political, ideological, etc. - can end up at risk of becoming unhealthy. When they reach that point, their way of thinking and their behaviors actually end up exhibiting the same patterns: inability to recognize alternate viewpoints, and unwillingness to modify behaviors when exposed to new viewpoints.
DeleteBefore I sought healing from Antioch, I had no knowledge of the socio-psychological processes behind these groups. Now, I can use what I know as a guide when I visit a church or consider involvement in a civic or political group -- and I can use that knowledge to consider, too, whether or not I myself am becoming too closed-minded. Had I never been abused at Antioch, I'm not sure that I would have come to understand these things.
I still would rather not have experienced the harm I did; but at least it expanded my understanding of social psychology. Besides which, God can and has been repurposing my life, sometimes in very beautiful ways that probably never would have happened, had I not ended up abused at Antioch. So, while the journey has been long and often hard, what happened to me at Antioch will probably ultimately go down in the history of my life as not a huge deal; but rather, a point of challenging growth, as I had to expand my thinking in creative, not-so-Antiocher ways. ;)
Wishing you guys all the best! = D
-Lynda
Dear Lynda, you are not fighting alone, we just havn't met. :) please call or text me we need to get together asap! 254-301-2068if anyone else needs someone to talk to please text or call me. God Bless <3
Deletespent some time here today, largely agreeing with you based on my conversations with students here in Waco who are "recovering". i'm following your lead in posting anonymously. while you and i share similar theological bends, i am having a hard time deciding how this blog is building up the Kingdom of God. maybe before your next post you could take some time to define for your readers why this blog is beneficial--maybe in an author's profile or some other format other than a post that can be hidden by more recent posts.
ReplyDeletenot sure i'll be reading more until you can articulate a healthy, biblically based, Kingdom-building purpose.
Hi Anon of 2-11-10,
DeleteRegarding this blog having a healthy, biblically-based, Kingdom-building purpose:
When I was with Antioch from 2000-2005, we had a tacit gag rule in place, whereby folks with concerns were not permitted to speak up. When we did, our concerns were ignored; we were sometimes lectured, using Bible passages, in terms of why we were wrong. There was never any healthy dialog between the leadership and us. I was among those who approached the leadership at all levels according to Matthew 18:15-17. My concerns always fell on deaf ears, and it was not uncommon for my character to be attacked. I was not the only one who experienced this. We also found ourselves at risk of shunning / excommunication for speaking up. We had no means of addressing our concerns over any perceived heresies. This is where this blog becomes beneficial: for the purpose of dialog leading to iron sharpening iron, that we might learn from each other (Proverbs 27:17). The diverse perspectives help to correct what we dissenters believe to be an imbalance leading into heresy at Antioch.
As you yourself point out, many of us have become wounded through Antioch. Those of us who fall into that category need to know that we are not crazy -- that bad stuff really did happen to us. This blog serves as a comfort and encouragement to wounded sheep who have come through the Antioch system. It's our way of saying that church leaders and shepherds / pastors have no authority from God to wound the sheep (Ezekiel 34, Matthew 23). Antioch has taught us that it was all our fault -- that Antioch is perfect and approved by God and that we are the ones with "sin issues". As I'm sure you realize, the Bible teaches that we all have sin (Romans 3:23-24, 1 John 1:8-10). This includes all of us who've come through Antioch, including all folks still with Antioch.
So, we are working to build up the Kingdom of God by comforting the wounded (Isaiah 61) and working -- as best we reasonably can -- to promote sound doctrine (Titus 1:9 and 2:1).
Where I may be in error somewhere, I do apologize. I can only speak from what I have experienced, witnessed and read over the years. I realize that many at Antioch would deny my allegation of Antioch claiming to be perfect. It was not explicitly taught but was a subliminal message that was highly-implied, especially toward those of us who raised concerns over church doctrine.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteOk, I wanted to make two corrections to my above statement, rather than just one:
DeleteFirst, my concerns have been over certain church doctrines and practices I witnessed while at Antioch -- ones that appeared to be harming people at the time.
Second, I attempted to practice Matthew 18:15-17; but in reality, no one would accompany me as a witness, even though there sometimes have been witnesses. Had someone approached me to go with them as a witness and had I seen what they wished to address, I'd have liked to have gone; but no one approached me.
One of the most freeing things I have ever learned is that my emotions are MY EMOTIONS. Any "woundings" that you or anyone else experience are the responsibility of the one who FEELS them. I am able to change and control my emotions, nobody else is allowed the honor of manipulating how feel. I accept that which I can't change, loving people while using the freedom of disagreement. Nobody wounds me, makes me mad, or makes me happy. I am free today because God has given me the privilege of emotions that are mine & mine alone. They do not lead me, they're the proverbial caboose.
DeleteIt is good to feel our emotions, from intense pain to wonderful happiness.
This blog sounds like a toddler having a temper tantrum because he didn't get what he wanted.
The original post is rife with error, and full of emotion that is the responsibility of the poster alone.
Yes, Paul may have written a letter to ACC back in the day, but he would also offer a detailed, intelligent summary of the issues at hand, not the rantings of a child who is led by emotion.
Grow up.
Anon of 2-27-15 / 8:48 AM,
DeleteHave you read through this blog and the responses?
I'm glad that you have your emotions in check. Good for you! Others of us are weaker than that but still belong to Jesus.
You say that nobody wounds you. Well, people wound me. If nobody wounds us, then why would there be broken hearts for God to heal (Psalm 34:18, 147:3, Isaiah 61:1, Rev. 21:4)?
If you know the Scriptures, then of course you'd probably realize that when we cause someone to experience negative emotions that Jesus commands us to go and be reconciled with that person (Matthew 5:23-24). In other words, the Bible says that we DO bear responsibility when someone ends up with negative emotions on account of something we did or said.
You want a summary of our concerns. I don't know that I can do justice to it, but I can try. These have been my observations:
Delete1. Several of us have either known others or ourselves been on the receiving end of having felt lorded over -- controlled -- by Antioch leaders.
2. Because of Antioch teaching, we were programmed to believe that we could not stand up for ourselves or for others whom we recognized to be in the right.
3. Those of us who did stand up to Antioch leaders have been systematically silenced by her tacit gag rule. If we took it further, we would be lectured, then be judged, have our characters assassinated, and then sometimes be kicked out of the church. This has not happened to everyone. I will grant you that.
4. We've long recognized Antioch's culture of control, intimidation and fear. We stay as long as we do because we fail to recognize Antioch’s distortion of Bible passages. We leave because the environment eventually becomes too stressful for us, on account of what we observe and experience.
5. Those of us who have been out for a while have been confused because we believed Antioch when she taught us that what happened to us was our fault.
6. We've been confused because we knew all along something was wrong; but we didn't realize until now that Antioch taught a distorted interpretation of the Bible.
7. We are relieved to know that it wasn't really our fault; but the damage for some of us happened so long ago that it will take us time to heal.
8. Some of us live with residual, PTSD-like triggers connected to our time in Antioch, and we post here because we don't want others to suffer as much as we have.
Many of us on this blog who have been wounded have ourselves gone to the people who have wounded us and sought to work things out. We post on this blog because there continues to be a lack of reconciliation, not because we want to. Some of us like me also post here out of concern that this may be a trend in the Antioch International Movement of Churches. I for one am tired of hearing of an increasing number of folks needing to "recover" from the Antioch Movement as the movement continues to grow. That tells me that something is wrong and needs to be addressed. I believe that God cares about His sheep, and that how His "shepherds" treat His flock DOES matter (Ezekiel 34).
Moreover, though, when we place the blame on the wounded, that is demonstrating neither love nor respect toward the wounded. Frankly, it's probably more apt to come across as hurtful, unloving and disrespectful to us "wounded" types.
This isn't the message you intend to convey, is it?
I went to an Antioch Church plant outside of Texas. It was a horrible exprience, and I feel so traumatized from the experience that I now can't even attend church anywhere anymore. Horrible snobby parishioners who do you a favor by speaking to you; lousy, apithetic pastoring unless they deem you "important". It felt more like a corporate firm than a church. If you are young, besutiful, Protestant looking, and well to do by all means go and enjoy yourself. Talk all the Christianese you want. If you are a little down on your luck and really need the love of God really bad, run for your life. They will pretend to be the place for you, but they will actually fear and despise you. They will at least ignore you. Big talkers. Totally shallow. Too busy to care, unless you are "The Type." So if you are "The Type" you shall possibly thrive. I, however, may not recover. Total putrid hell.
DeleteOh, and I just want to add, that if you find a fairly decent person there, they will eventually leave anyway, on one of the many "high on the hog" mission trips, where their monthly income will far exceed those that the church looks down on. I know their budget is triple what I earn, but sharing the love of Jesus requires a comfortable standard of living. They certainly equate financial gain as a yardstick of spiritlual worthiness.. They would probably think St. Francis of Asissi was a scumbag. I'm not saying anytging that isn't true. By the way, i don't mind posting this as Anonymous. I think that was basically my name there anyway, for the several years I suffered there, until i woke up. Noisy cymbals, clanging gongs. Well, I suppose self important people need a place to congregate, too..
DeleteAnon, I am really sorry about your experience. I know from my experience with Antioch-Waco that there is a lot of truth to what you are saying. I am doing what I can now to warn folks and help folks heal. I'm sorry I didn't help warn and protect folks like you earlier. I was confused and needed to wait for the fog to clear.
DeleteAs far as I know, we don't yet have good stats on the prevalence of abuse and trauma in the Antioch Movement. As we get better figures, I will try to get that info out on my dissident blog, Wandering Dolly Sods.
As I get more information on specific problematic church plants, I can post warnings on my blog.
In addition, I have a page on my blog, where former members from any Antioch church plant may post their stories, negative, positive, neutral, whatever.
I am doing what I can to help us see how widespread the problem is.
Here is a link to my Antioch dissident blog: http://wanderingdollysods.blogspot.com/
Here is a link to my Google+ account, whereby you can track down my gmail if you'd like to reach out: https://plus.google.com/u/0/105282744371190064105/posts
I know it's tough, Anon. I've been there, too. I hope things get better for ya. Thanks for being willing to share your experience. I wish you the best in the recovery process. =)
it's a sad thing, but there are other church organizations, besides the antioch ones, who follow the essential form you have described. calvary chapels are one example. i could write a book. one of the defining markers is the all-male pastor/elder system. it's so self-important and all-controlling, that when i visited the calvary chapel in the medford, oregon area, I had to smother my laughter to watch the serious 'little boys' perform. the pastor always has a high stool to use to show how casual he is, just another guy who has 'given his heart to jesus and is called to teach.' he places one side of his buttocks on the stool, and puts one foot on one of the rungs. i think they must practice this at the costa mesa, ca headquarters where they are trained. they need to wear jeans and t-shirts and are usually young and attractive and falsely humble. cut from a pattern. as soon as the service begins, preceded by a band or guitar and singing, the elders takes their places, one at each exit door, which they then control so that no one can go in or out. they spread their legs and cross their arms behind them in a vaguely military way. i was always tempted to get up ad leave in the middle of the sermon and see if i could break out of one of the exit doors, but i didn't want to embarrass my friend. after the attendance grew to a thousand or so members, the damage began to expose itself. the pastor, having created a picture of himself as loving and humble and all-knowing, began his seduction of several very pretty young, trusting and naive married women, telling them that the lord had told him that the intimacy he was introducing them to was ok. not all calvary chapel pastors became sexually abusive, but they all created the context for it happening. thank you for reaching out to the people who have been terribly abused psychologically and emotionally in the antioch system. they have been victims of brainwashing and suppression of their own sense of what is right and wrong.
DeleteThank you so much for starting this blog. I am a Truett student at Baylor and I have always been curious about the inner workings of this church. I have heard really sad stories about people involved and I hope that you will share more about your experience. I am curious about how involved you were in the life groups at Antioch and if you could discuss how those groups were organized. I have heard interesting accounts about what the general purpose of these groups are. Please keep writing.
ReplyDeleteAnd, of course, the BEST place to learn the "inner workings of this church" would be a blog of angry, hurting, unstable crybabies like Lynda who type endless complaints while claiming to be offering "comfort." I hope your Truett profs teach you more effective church-inner-workings-investigative-techniques than surfing "anti" blogs.
DeleteStop being a bully. You wouldn't be here if a small part of you didn't believe something's rotten in Denmark. Look into your heart. People come here rarely these days... Lynda seems unstable, yes. But WHY would you harrass these folks MORE? They're obviously hurting. Your words only serve to reinforce the junk that has been done to them and the lies they believe. You need to grow up and love.
DeleteJune 19 2016 Anon: if you had something against me, why, then, did you not approach me privately first? This whole time, I've had my e-mail available through my Google+ profile for you to contact me at any time.
DeleteI am sorry that I come across to you guys as unstable. As you wish. I'm actually looking forward to the day I'll be through with the blogging and can move on with my life, because running such a blog is taxing. But, for the sake of those it has helped, I am glad.
Also, Anon of June 19, 2016: You are right: I need to trim down the posts on my own blog and use more respectful language. I am happy to do that to the best of my ability when I get the chance.
DeleteThat said, Anon, I believe that God loves you, Antioch, the dissident crowd, and me. As such, I cannot allow you or anyone else to bully me into silence. No, Anon: I matter to God, just as you do. I believe that both our perspective matter.
I believe that we need to talk to each other, learn from each other, and do what we can to resolve things. Well, unless you really think that the problem is me. Then yeah, there probably wouldn't be a point of us talking to each other, because I'm a child of God, not a problem. ;)
Also, Anon: You do realize that the Truett student's remark was dated 2010, and that I started blogging in 2015, right? The Truett student's remark was in regards to Chilled Zealot's blog, not mine. True, we're taking a dissident blog either way; but let me ask you this: Where, then, can folks learn of what Antioch believes and practices, without going through the training school or spending considerable time, effort, or some money on a course?
When I was a college student member of Antioch-Waco, there was a lot that was kept hidden from me, or that I learned over time -- teachings and practices that, had I known ahead of time, would have been grounds for me to have chosen a different church while in Waco, because I adhere to different beliefs on non-essentials. Why can't folks know this ahead of time?
Normally in a church, you can ask about these things, and they will be disclosed up-front. I do think these issues matter -- especially when the expectations are relatively high, and you have a strong sense of community. I believe that people should have a right to know what they're getting into. That's why I've written what I have.
Anyway, blessings to you and yours, Anon. =)
To: February 11, 2010 10:38 AM
ReplyDeleteProtip: what you said is a logical fallacy. If you don't continue to read how will you ever read a post that has the qualities you want in it?
I go to Antioch, have for nearly 10 years, and God has met me here and I am so proud of this little church. I have been changed, my family has been changed and I am just 1 of thousands of examples that God is working in this church smack dab in the middle of no where. I understand it is not for everyone, but as for me and my family, it is nearly perfect. -God bless
ReplyDeleteChip how is your tv show? of course you endorse the church, your best friends and pastors live close to you. Some of us are shunned by the leadership due to our opinions, thoughts and corrections on the culture and scripture being said, some of us aren't 'mission based' and choose community overall cause that's what church is supposed to be, I'll see you in the industry.
DeleteHi Chip, so I tried seeing if your name linked to contact info, and it did not. So granted, I don't know for sure if you are the TV personality from HGTV's Fixer Upper and one of the folks of Magnolia Homes; but knowing Antioch, you probably are affiliated with both.
DeleteWhere I grew up in Northern Virginia, folks who worked in real estate were not permitted to discriminate against folks, based on religion, race, ethnicity, etc. We had similar expectations from TV personalities, if they desired to demonstrate professional integrity.
If you work with HGTV, then I don't how your contract would read, but I highly doubt that they would want to find you endorsing a controversial religious group that could be said to have violated some people's civil rights. What do I mean?
While I was there, I was discriminated against as a female. I was not afforded the same privileges as males, and in fact, males who were not related to me, disrespected my personal autonomy and my father's wishes for me. ("Male coverings", we called them. Unmarried males who were not pursuing a relationship with me, would at times boss me around against my will, as if I were their personal property. I sometimes couldn't get in my car by myself, nor could I share anything in the church, except by permission of a male in charge.)
I would say that my Antioch backdrop -- including learning to "hear" a voice in the head from "God", I will grant you -- was the primary contributing factor that led to me ending up sexually-assaulted on the Baylor University campus, because of how I was treated and led to believe by Antioch. It's a good thing that Antioch is a church and not a school. Otherwise, she might be subject to Title IX regulations. But as a church, no. So, I'm outta luck.
LGBT folks tended to have a rough time at Antioch-Waco as well. We would gossip about them, and they were not always afforded the same opportunities as straight individuals.
I was also ultimately not permitted to uphold my own Mainline Protestant Christian religious beliefs, even as I was being told that Antioch embraced all Christians. To me, the claims of "non-denominationalsim" / "inter-denominationalism" were a joke. You would know perfectly well that we were expected to conform -- that outside views -- at times even biblical, Christian ones -- have tended to be frowned upon.
So, the part that bothered me there, was the sense of deception -- of Antioch leaders misrepresenting the nature and expectations of Antioch.
Worse yet, though, are the allegations of Antioch having similar effects of a destructive cult on some people, including me: psychological abuse leading to underemployment and difficulties serving as a contributing member of society.
Something tells me that HGTV would not want to affiliate with an abusive religious group like that, if for no other reason, then due to the controversy.
Perhaps I am wrong, but it does make me want to inquire with HGTV, to find out what their stance is.
Incidentally, my experience with Antioch-Waco is essentially consistent with the Anonymous poster of October 20, 2015, 11:59PM.
I'm glad you have been blessed. Others of us have dang near had our lives destroyed. Enjoy your blessings while you have them. Perhaps someday, God will remember those of us who have not been so blessed by Antioch.
If you wish to reach me, you can find my e-mail via Google+.
I doubt this is the real Chip but I know that is how the Gaines really feel! I bet if they found out that they were funding LGBT groups they would die! LOL I know so much dirt on this church it's ridiculous! Again I am here only for the people that were hurt by Antioch because I am one of them! It is not ok what they continue to do to people!!!! I will die trying to get them shut down!!!!!
DeleteChip, I feel hesitant about your pride in "this little church" because you also say you are but "one in thousands of examples". So can we still call this a 'little' church? Similarly, the church "smack dab in the middle of nowhere" is in Waco, where many things have gone wrong in big ways, what I mean for the present is, it is NOT nowhere. Also, as a former staff member it is one of 14 US church plants and 44 in the world (2010 statistics) Again not "little" and not "nowhere".
ReplyDeleteAlso, Chip after ten years you may not notice this anymore but when you mirror the scripture "..as for me and my house we will serve the Lord" with your statement at the end, it subtly, makes the hint that you are right because scripture is right. So, if anyone is feeling it is not perfect they think something must be wrong with them. It is so common in Antioch... and coming from leadership it works in the desired viewpoints subtly.
I second everything you just said. I too am a former ACC leader.
DeleteAnd Chip when you mirror the scripture "...as for me and my house..." you make it sound as though you are replacing the Lord with ACC. And that is one of the problems with ACC.
DeleteMost churches I have attended subtly make a hint that the way they interpret the bible is right, without saying anyone else is wrong, but one might get a hint that way. There are no perfect churches. We don´t go to church because it is perfect, we go because it is a place where we get spiritual nutrition. We are, however, responsible for our own souls. It is up to us to seek deep into our own souls and find our own truth, that is why God gave us inteligence, to question and to analyze. I am a parent of a Life group leader and I find a lot more positive from her experience at Antioch that at other churches where we have attended. I am not saying Antioch is perfect, just better for us than other churches we've attended. Don't let religion divide us, rather, let the spirit unite us all.
DeleteI respect all comments.
Why would someone be thrown out?
DeleteMy guess is that reasons probably vary.
DeleteYou would probably do well to ask some Antioch leaders. I'm sure they'd have a broader perspective than just my examples. But here is what I can share:
I may be mistaken, but from what I recall, I believe that lifegroup (small group) leaders -- and possibly other leaders -- may have at times exercised authority over others to silence or remove from fellowship those who were vocal in their disagreements. This was done in the name of "unity in the body of Christ" and "being of one mind". A typical mantra used to silence dissenters in a group setting was "peace in the name of Jesus", because the dissenters would have a concern to raise that might challenge some aspect of Antioch teaching and / or practice.
It was not uncommon for us to view disagreements as demonic attacks on our fellowship and / or official doctrinal position.
The was also one time when, if I recall correctly, I was told to leave and not have contact with anyone from the church. At the time, I was in need of support, and the church was my support base.
To my knowledge, I was not expressly told that it was on account of some unrepentant sin; however, it was believed that it was in my best interest to send me home to my parents. I was about twenty-one at the time and only consented under pressure from leadership. Per Antioch teaching on submission and obedience to human leaders, I was taught that I did not have a choice in this matter.
I don't know if that counts for being "thrown out", but that's certainly how it felt at the time. I forgive those involved. I still don't think it's right for church leaders to assume that kind of authority over other legal adults, but that's also where my theology these days differs from Antioch theology. You see, in retrospect, it's almost like they were doing me a favor, because I'm a lot happier now that I have more autonomy. ;)
For clarification regarding my incident, I will say: I did go back to Antioch the next school year, and I was received back into fellowship. However, from then on out, I found it to be in my best interest to do my best to adhere to Antioch teaching and practice while at Antioch.
DeleteOf course, now that I'm out, I can follow the Lord however I want, and I like that. = )
Some last thoughts regarding the concept of being "thrown out", that I forgot until now:
DeleteIf you find out that someone's left -- whether peacefully or not -- ask why. Ask the person who left. Ask your leaders. Ask people who might know why. To the extent that you reasonably can, try to develop a balanced perspective. You might learn something.
Also, when it comes to any ministry, church or movement being birthed out of an older organization, I'd recommend finding out if this came about on good terms. Sometimes you may be told that by one party, and it may or may not be true -- or it may be partially true. Hopefully there would be evidence to back up the claim of a parting on good terms. One sign of the organizations being on good terms can be willingness of the organizations to partner with each other on occasion while normally operating as separate entities. Respectful dialog and cooperation between both groups may be signs of a parting on good terms. Just food for thought. = )
Chip you're a great guy with a beautiful family. Seeing how you and your family approach life on the show inspires me and my family. Thank you. Erik and Caroline
Delete"...it was in my best interest to send me home to my parents."
DeleteBut you were a Baylor student? How does a church you attend in a town where you go to college make you go home?
Had I stayed, I would have been shunned. They use peer pressure and distortions of Bible passages to make you do what they want.
DeleteI understand why you wouldn't understand. It was a lot of subtle psychological pressure, and by that point, with the teachings I had had reinforced in me; the sleep deprivation, from trying to keep up with my courses and involvement in Antioch, mostly to try to please God, as Antioch had taught me by then; and the psychological abuse from the constant comments of how I didn't measure up; wasn't memorizing enough Bible verses / spending enough time with Jesus; didn't have enough faith for my healing / deliverance; didn't believe the Bible verses I was proclaiming (even though I actually did -- I was just exhausted).... it gets to you.
I hope you don't ever have to go through that hell, because that's exactly what it is. By the time they wear you down that much, they've already programmed you to do what they want, whether or not you realize it. Antioch honestly wore me down, until my ability to reason for myself was basically no longer there.
This process is called thought reform. You might want to research Lifton's thought reform model, as well as Steven Hassan's BITE Model and the late Margaret Thaler Singer's coercive persuasion model (from her book, "Cults in Our Midst: The Continuing Fight Against Their Hidden Menace").
Hopefully that could help explain a bit what happened.
Had I not been put through all that, then yeah, of course I could've just walked away; but it wasn't that simple, because of all the psychological damage that had already been done.
Lynda you are so right!!!! If you find out that someone's left -- whether peacefully or not -- ask why. Ask the person who left. Ask your leaders. Ask people who might know why.
DeleteWhen you ask people while they will tell you! And they left Highland Baptist because the old ladies were tired of seeing college girls in short shorts around their husbands!! That is why Antioch will continue to hurt people because they come from a racist background and they only cater to BAYLOR students! They DO NOT know how to handle diversity but it has been diverse for years!!!
Can you give examples,even anecdotal ones, of what you mean? As Former staff member of several churches and a current member of ACC. Tho blog seems to be a place to gripe without any evidence. I'd happily listen to criticism constructive or other wise. I/we can't improve if we don't know what the issues are. Nor can I know if I need to run.
ReplyDeleteYou posted this a long time ago, asking for examples. Let me know if you still want them, because I am one. A few of my friends are others.
DeleteI would like to hear examples. We are brand new to Texas, and we just visited this church. We liked it, but sounds like there's more we need to know???
DeleteNearly every negative example only relates if you are highly involved at Antioch. Attending Sunday services are a great idea but if you are involved with their missions organization or training schools as well as some Lifegroups you will likely encounter some frustrating experiences. As a church it is great because it's preaching is theologically sound but as an organization overall it's methodology is flawed.
DeleteI was involved with Antioch for a couple years before leaving. I have stayed in contact with several people from Antioch. This past holiday season, I began missing lifegroups and college services and then Sunday services because I work a lot to be able to go to school. Unfortunately when my section began noticing this rumors began to sworn. I was asked why I didn't want to follow Jesus anymore and that I just need to go back to Anitoch where I belong. The funny thing is when I started going to Antioch I felt like I found home, but in fall 2013 I started feeling like it wasn't where God wanted me to be. I still pray for them. Its hard. When I left I decided I needed to just take a break from everything. And I found my best friend again! Not that God left me! We just had a "complicated relationship" when 30-40 other people want to be in the same relationship! I've been frustrated, hurt, felt abandoned by people who said they were my friends. Not that I'm a perfect friend but if someone stops going to church for a couple weeks I don't automatically think they are doing terrible things! Instead I ask them about what they have been up to and let them live their life! I don't need prayer for missing church! I had friends from outside of ACC tell me they had someone form my section asking about me and saying how I need to come back. When they never tried to contact me and ask how I was doing, or what I was going through. I say all this to not just share my story but to show how destructive I was to my relationship with Jesus! He's my heavenly Father! And I traded him for a bunch of earthly relationships that ended up burning me! Its awesome to have people around you supporting you but not when you completely lose yourself! I have my own thoughts and feelings! God made me that way! And some days I'm just not in the right grove but he always gets me back to his love and grace! Its enough! You don't need anymore than him! Don't get lost in a sea of people! This is my story and I hope it helps and doesn't hurt! :)
DeleteRecently attended Antioch and the reviews are right. The first few rows of people looked like the student section at a Duke Basketball games with random yelling, screaming, clapping and jumping. Then people walked to the back of the room laying down as if God had told them to do that. Then the worship leader said she could feel God walk in the room as she was singing. Then the pastor touched on life groups and the philosophy of the church and how our relationship with God does not grow unless we are involved in these groups.
DeleteRobo3rd I have to many examples to type! I will say as a Hispanic in that church you will never be ACCEPTED even though they preach that they love people! I remember my friend tried to get creamer out of the "coffee room" and keep in mind SHE WORKS THERE and this white lady told her to get out of there because nothing in there was for her! At World Mandate we had one of the worship guys and his girlfriend throw our bibles and journals out of our seats!!! That does not include the time they sent the black janitor to kick us out of church, yet I was meeting with a Hispanic pastor and she didn't do anything! That is when I knew it was time to go! I should not feel racism in the church if we are all focusing on JESUS! So instead of catching a case for beating someone for all the abuse I have endured-I LEFT!!!! But it is not over I will not be happy until they are shut down!!!!
DeleteMy family has been attending Antioch for a year now, having moved to Waco from another state. We chose Antioch based on what we were able to glean from an internet search. Having served in overseas missions in the past, we were drawn to the high value Antioch places on missions as well as the outreach into their own community. We also wanted to find a church, especially with just relocating, that had a thriving youth ministry for our teenagers. From our experience, it has been a good decision. Our kids are growing in their relationship with Jesus, we are plugged into a great little life group where we have made wonderful friends, and the messages have been biblically sound. On this side of eternity, there won't be a perfect church to be found because all churches are filled with and led by people. We have been involved in unhealthy churches in the past as well as churches that have imploded, and as a result are pretty intolerant of certain things, but have had a very positive experience at Antioch. The cool thing about the Body of Christ is that it is huge and diverse. Each part has something unique to offer and it's ok to end involvement with one part and join another part. It's all the same Body, and someday we will get to see and experience better how we all fit together.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad I came upon this blog, though it seems as if no one has used it in a while...I too was in a leadership position about a year ago at an Antioch church (I will not specify which one, but it wasn't Waco,TX). I started off being a high school senior in a youth life group. I was reached out to by some ACC members though evangelism and I started attending services and small group meetings. My first year there I was in a life group, was being discipled, and was regularly attending services/events. After that first year, I was asked to step into a leadership position within the youth ministry. I began leading life groups and discipling other members of our LG. This was just after my first year of being a "born again" Christian. I felt like I was being thrown into the whole thing blind. About 5 months into my leadership role, I began to realize that I was becoming trapped and being told things that I wasn't even sure how I felt about. I did, how ever, truly believe in the love of Jesus. But the more I read the Bible and the more time I was spending praying and listen to God, I realized that something didn't seem right about ACC. ACC is very caught up in "living in the supernatural". I find this to be a problem, because SO many times I saw people who had genuine true life problems that needed to be dealt with in a serious manner...and the LG leaders and pastors were leading these people to escape into the supernatural instead of directly dealing with problems. I felt like everyone there was running away from their life problems and hiding in this supernatural state. Here is a slogan used on a ACC poster - "Living in the supernatural every day". I'm not saying that tapping into God's supernatural power is bad, I'm just saying that we shouldn't use it as a hiding place - which I saw MANY people use it in that way. An other thing that really bothered me about ACC is how awful they make you feel when you have made a mistake. They make you feel dirty...and then everyone gossips about it but doesn't admit to it. And probably the biggest problem I have with ACC is how impossible they make it to have a relationship with someone who doesn't attend ACC or isn't a Christian. I was told to basically shun the people in my life that didn't believe in Jesus. I lost many close friends because of this and saw a lot of other people go through the same things. They made me feel like I was "dirtying" the water by associating myself with other non-ACC goers or people who didn't follow Jesus. I was turning away and lost good friends because I was trying SO hard to fit into ACC's cookie cutter picture. I have a very broken relationship with my family, and often times I felt like I was being told to turn them away as well because of the way they live their lives. I felt like I was part of cult. Honestly. Becoming a "born again" Christian there was a big mistake. After I stepped down from my leadership role there after over 2 years, I was broken and I felt like my relationship with God was confusing and full of questions because I was trying to decided if what I learned there was valid or not. Its taken me almost a year to recover from the experience I had at ACC. But there is just no use in telling anyone who is there this story because they will dismiss me as troubled and "lost". When in fact, I'm not lost. I believe in the saving love of Jesus Christ and I have committed myself to him. To anyone who has been told my ACC that you have "sin" issues or are "lost" - Know that God LOVES you! And if you believe in his grace and love, you are not lost. With that said, I'm not saying that the people of ACC aren't God loving people. But there were SO many things going wrong in that church...I do not recommend it. It left me with so many scars.
ReplyDeleteI have never been to ACC, however, I have been actively involved in a toxic church that regularly communicated shame to its members. This does not come from our gracious Father in Heaven, but is dressed-up legalism which Paul addresses multiple times in his letters and Jesus rebukes openly. It is shame dressed as righteousness - white washed tombs. For a young believer you appear to have had an amazing opportunity to hone your Holy Spirit listening skills! Nice! I pray that you will continue your pursuit of God's truth which will set you free, not tie you up in bondage and shame. Many blessings to you!!
DeleteThank you so much for your story!!!! Omg I thought I was the only one who felt this way. I recently stopped going to All Peoples Church in San Diego, and they are very closely affiliated with Antioch. The whole staff is practically from Waco. I started attending about 5 months ago, and at first I was taken aback by the way they prayed and the things they taught. I thought, "Hey! This is cool I guess... they pray boldly, etc" but for the past 8 weeks I have been in CONSTANT questioning/confusion with God which has never happened to me. I grew up with very sound biblical doctrine and an excellent foundation, so as soon as I started hearing the stories from people and the things they were praying for, the more skeptical and confused I got. They love Jesus, but there is SO much wrong with some of the things they believe. I've been feeling so vulnerable and abandoned, but I know the Lord is with me through this process, but this church basically made me question a lot about my faith and about how strong I am in Christ. My spirit has been saying NO to that place for a long time, and I finally got the courage to tell the woman discipling me that I am taking a break from all of them. Immediately, I had peace from the Lord as I decided to not go there anymore. So now I'm just doing a lot of research about charismatic churches and I want nothing to do with them. I just want to get back to how I used to walk with God: completely trusting him and never even doubting his faithfulness, with no distractions in my way. Do you have any suggestions...? You said it's been almost a year for you, and that really worries me... I don't wanna feel this way for a year... I know it's different with everyone but I'm just waiting to be out of this season of fear and confusion... If you have any suggestions or anything, please let me know. I just miss how I used to see life, and now it's all skewed and messed up due to what APC told me. It's like my heart knows that stuff is wrong, but I can't seem to let go of the stuff they preach. Thanks for your story though, I completely agree with you on all you said. I'm going through the same thing right now. Hope to hear back from you. Thanks...
DeleteDear Anonymous, Thank you for sharing your story and perspective. I am a parent who sent a child off on a mission trip with ACC, and then became alarmed today about some things and decided to investigate further. You are courageous and on the right track! -AnonymousMom
DeleteThank you for the replies everyone...I haven't been on this blog in a long time and I'm sorry I missed all your responses. Hopefully you all see them at some point in time.
DeleteThe thing that bothered me most about this church is the way they approach a relationship with Jesus. Anyone who wants to "make it" at an ACC church needs to be in a discipleship relationship with someone at the church who is either a) a leader or b) someone who has more experience than you do in walking with Jesus. This sounds okay, but I found that in my experience being discipled and discipling other people was that I felt like I had someone breathing down my neck 24/7 about my relationship with Jesus. ACC takes the concept of accountability to a whole different level that I find invasive. I was constantly being questioned about my relationship with God. And to be totally honest...I think its nobodies business what God is speaking to me. That's private between me and God. That is a secret place that we as followers of Jesus go to be with Him and for Him to speak to us. And if I feel like sharing what God is telling me then I'll do that with someone that I feel close enough to share that with. As a leader, I feel like I was expected to know everything that was going in my small group members' relationship with Jesus. Towards the end of my time at ACC, I discontinued my discipleship relationship with an other leader because I ended up disliking it all together. I was sick of having to dish out everything God was speaking to me (besides words that He gave to me for other people) to someone else. It no longer felt special to me. My secret place with God was no longer secret.
For those of you recovering from ACC. The best thing you can do for yourself is not go to an other church for a while. Spend time with God by yourself without the influence of other people around you. When I was at ACC, I feel like everyone was so outward with their relationships with Jesus that you had this atmosphere were some people could become discouraged and feel like their relationship with God had to "measure up" to the person next to them in church or at life group. I know that I felt this a lot when I first started attending ACC. So take some time to read the Bible or find some worship music that you enjoy and learn how to seek God on your own. Not the way someone else tells you to. When you do this, you will feel the freedom in your relationship with God. It helped me so much. When I first left, I actually took a break from anything spiritually related for a while. Which I can't say I recommend doing because this is not something God would want us to do. He doesn't want us to be far from Him and it can lead to us being fearful of coming back to Him. Erase what you have learned at ACC! Start over again with God. Ask Him "What do have in store for me? What have you called me to do in this life?" We are here to fulfill the purpose God has given to us. And when you find it, God will start speaking to you in amazing ways!
I will be praying for all of you!
Crn can you email me please? I have a question about the church in San Diego that I would like to get more perspective on since I have a loved one currently involved with the church. ym email is tinkerbeth2000@sbcglobal.net
DeleteThanks!
Hi All,
DeleteI would just like to thank everyone for sharing their experiences. My heart goes out the young person on Dec 6, 2011. He seems wise beyond his years, and I am certain it is because he is connected to the Source... Jesus.
I was a pastor at a rather large church and have always had a personal, healthy walk with God, which means HE encouraged me when I failed, cheered me on when I obeyed.
My boss, thinking he was the top gun, was a wonderful teacher of God's Word but practiced little of what he preached. The staff was rewarded for obeying him and threatened for thinking differently. He reminded us at every weekly staff meeting that he signed our paychecks. So I understand Christian leadership and its potential abuse first hand.
However, at some point in our Christian journey, we must distinguish between what God says in His Word, and the work of man. We are to stay true to the teachings of Jesus, and either lear from the error of those over us, ignore their nonsense, or flee their presence. Departing from fellowship, ceasing from studying God's Word, or departing from the faith are all wrong decisions.
Ultimately, you have the responsibility to abide in Christ. Doing so will produce the fruit and life Jesus promised. A healthy church should help you achieve that goal, and your helping others to grow and trust Christ will enrich your lives.
My wife and I have been on the mission field for the past 10 years. We still depend on Christ and HE has never failed us. I am writing to encourage you to continue on in the faith and share it with others.
I was involved with Antioch for a couple years before leaving. I have stayed in contact with several people from Antioch. This past holiday season, I began missing lifegroups and college services and then Sunday services because I work a lot to be able to go to school. Unfortunately when my section began noticing this rumors began to sworn. I was asked why I didn't want to follow Jesus anymore and that I just need to go back to Anitoch where I belong. The funny thing is when I started going to Antioch I felt like I found home, but in fall 2013 I started feeling like it wasn't where God wanted me to be. I still pray for them. Its hard. When I left I decided I needed to just take a break from everything. And I found my best friend again! Not that God left me! We just had a "complicated relationship" when 30-40 other people want to be in the same relationship! I've been frustrated, hurt, felt abandoned by people who said they were my friends. Not that I'm a perfect friend but if someone stops going to church for a couple weeks I don't automatically think they are doing terrible things! Instead I ask them about what they have been up to and let them live their life! I don't need prayer for missing church! I had friends from outside of ACC tell me they had someone form my section asking about me and saying how I need to come back. When they never tried to contact me and ask how I was doing, or what I was going through. I say all this to not just share my story but to show how destructive I was to my relationship with Jesus! He's my heavenly Father! And I traded him for a bunch of earthly relationships that ended up burning me! Its awesome to have people around you supporting you but not when you completely lose yourself! I have my own thoughts and feelings! God made me that way! And some days I'm just not in the right grove but he always gets me back to his love and grace! Its enough! You don't need anymore than him! Don't get lost in a sea of people! This is my story and I hope it helps and doesn't hurt! :)
DeleteAwesome story!! I came to a similar revelation in my journey. I'm so glad you found your way back to intimacy with God.
DeletePlease email me @ mgracia254@gmail.com or call/text me 254-301-2068 I just want to help some of you walk out of this! I am glad I am strong enough in the lord not to let them get to me! I am speaking up right now against ACC here in Waco! I have met and spoke to so many people that ACC has hurt, so I want to make a safe space for you all to get this fully out of your system and walk how GOD intended <3 Love you all and thanks for your stories! It makes me realize that I am NOT ALONE and I made the RIGHT decision leaving!
DeleteI am a current ACC member and I want to apologize to anyone that was hurt by anyone at Antioch. I have read through many of the complaints and I just want to saw I am sorry.
ReplyDeleteTo those who have been hurt, I am not a leader at ACC, but I am someone who has found a different relationship with God. I want to ask how can you hate a church? Do you hate the walls or the stage? I have walked with my Lifegroup at ACC for almost 2 semesters, and I have found many things that I have found anywhere else.
First ACC tries to form communities, Acts 2: 42-47. This verse is what these lifegroups are made for. ACC in waco tries its best to make sure you are plugged in with the body of believers.
2nd, Antioch does try to keep you accountable, but I see more love in it then I see judgement. "Iron sharpens iron" in Lifegroups, where we pray and do practical things. I was addicted to pornography for 6-7 years before ACC and am now free from it, and I can say that I felt no judgement when I told my LG about it.
Thirdly, ACC is more about speaking encouragement then speaking judgement. In fact I had many conversations with some of the church leaders, and I have yet to find one that has judged me for my addiction. Most prayed over me.
Finally to living in the Supernatural, what did the church do in Jesus's time? Did they stand on boxes and yell at people, did they create super stadium churches, no... They went and found people of peace, and blessed them and told them about Christ. They performed miracles and loved on the people they saw. They didn't judge those who rejected, but they understand that their only responsibility was 3 things: Love God, love others, and spread the word of this love.
To whoever has been hurt by Antioch I want to apologize again. I am not a leader at ACC, and have not been to any others but Waco, but I know their is a powerful movement, and the "tiny church" has grown into a powerful group of believers.
I am not here to be anonymous, but here to love:
DJ Weier
214-893-7105
How can you not dislike a church which at first love-bombs their visitors and new members, later chastises them through a discipler/mentor, and tells other members or visitors to not hang around you or have a relationship with you because "you're a bad influence" except that you're the last to know because you heard it from the person who was told that. This is the Belton church I went to.
DeleteMy future husband was discouraged by one lifegroup leader not to be with me, I know who told him because my husband said his name. I won't even mention it here but that was after I was told by another member not to be friends or date me because I was "a bad influence and (get this) emotionally unstable." Really? I attend classes, study and like to read books often, go for walks around the campus pond. I suspect it was that same person or at least a leader of the group I went to.
After being so involved with that church for 4 times a week, they have the nerve to treat someone like that and gradually phase them out at meetings, just not connect with you like they used to, because I wasn't being discipled anymore because I didn't feel comfortable with it at the time (I was polite about it too).
I was at a hard point in my life and definitely benefited from the "love bombing" after getting out of an abusive marriage and starting over at a college. Passionate they may be but also toxic as far as my experience with this church, definitely. Please consider this a "it could happen to you" and keep it in mind.
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DeleteDJ,
DeleteThat is just it. On paper Antioch appears to be a wonderful church but if you examine it in practice, that's when you become disillusioned. My goal of this post is not to convince people to hate ACC but rather to caution them. I say the things I say not to bash Antioch but to warn members that you will very likely get messed up when you come in touch with reality and be ineffective for God's Kingdom. And that is the very last thing I want, to see one more person get hurt or be useless in spreading the Gospel because of all the damage.
I am not trying to hide anything so I am going to be as open and honest as possible (And try to be as little scattered as possible). This is a hard topic to organize and support every single claim as I write this out. But if you have questions, please do not hesitate to ask me for more evidence, advice, etc.
I started going to the ACC in College Station my freshman year after asking a friend where she went to church. My first experience was the typical, "Wow, this is weird, but I kinda like it [ACC's willingness to go against the traditional approach to "doing church"]." That next semester (Spring 2011) I joined a life group. I became very involved: church, early morning prayer, life group, treasure hunting, discipleship, and hangouts every week. I almost felt guilty if I did not attend every one of these event each week. That same semester I decided to actually start living out what it means to follow Jesus ( I had become a Christian about a year and a half earlier). Not even a month later, I was asked to become a life group leader (keep in mind, I was a freshman). All the while, several of my friends had watched me and even warned me leave Antioch. Of course I dismissed them, as well as this site (I was shown it freshman year) because I was told that "They had it wrong. They didn't try hard enough. They were still living in sin and not willing to submit to authority." And I believed it.
Then came summer where I returned home to no church to call home and no friends or family that could support me in my walk with Christ. To say it was hard is an understatement. I went from an intense Jesus-loving community to nothing except me and my Bible. This is where many would like to critic me and say that my faith was not strong enough. But what I came to realize is that the community that I had was not ideal, it was disconnected from reality, so much so that I was crushed when I did return to reality. Antioch surrounded me into a fantasy bubble where the only time I stepped outside of it was when I treasure hunted at Northgate (the local bar district in College Station). That is why many of my relationships outside of Antioch were discouraged and then disintegrated. I have seen it happen with many (well over 25) of my friends and with the people I still keep in touch with at ACC.
Sophomore and junior year were full of questions (If many of the things ACC does were biblical or not). I asked everyone their opinion on them. I was often told to pray my doubt away or submit to authority (regardless if they are wrong or not) because that is what we are brainwashed to do. One of my biggest concerns was the manner in which people prayed, whether that be for healing, a result, spiritual gifts, or "a word/picture from the Lord." I would ask them "How is it okay for some one to pray for a guy in a wheel chair and him not be healed? Doesn't that discourage him when we tell him that 'God wants to heal him?'" Common answers followed a long the lines "Well there is grace for that. They should have tried to pray again. Perhaps God is testing their faith. They probably had sin in their life." And so on the list goes… But that is NOT right! When you pray for someone and they do not get healed/receive spiritual gifts, especially when the person praying states "God wants to…" it does not just discourage you, it creates doubt and scars you.
DeleteI left at the end of my junior year (just this past May) after being fed up with it all. I was (and still slightly am) angry and pissed off at ACC. I realized that my hatred was not directed at the people themselves but at Satan. Like I stated earlier, this "Antioch way" appears good but has been twisted. This group of people has been tricked into being very legalistic and thinking that they are not. They have a passion for the idea of Jesus and completely miss the Jesus of the Bible in the process. It has fucked up me and my views of God as well as many of my friends. I am still recovering and probably will be for a long time. A large majority of us that went to Antioch when it first came to College Station no longer go. This is not because we have graduated and moved. It is because we realized that ACC is living in a false universe and they are not a good example of how Christians should be.
To those that are current members of ACC, I want to warn you to be careful. Do not accept everything said by your leader as truth. Take time to examine the evidence and reasoning used behind it. To those considering Antioch, I do not recommend going there, especially if you are a new believer. If you know people that go there, do not be afraid to challenge them or be swayed whenever they stamp their reasoning and motives with "Jesus."
I am more than willing to talk with anyone about it further, so just email me at mransom@live.com since this post is long enough as it is.
My son is a member of this church. I would like to help him out but I don't know how.
ReplyDeleteIt took me a very low GPA (probationary registration) after being involved almost every day of the week with Antioch activities to see the light. I also read this book called Twisted Scriptures after some negative experiences with my discipler and a few other things. Read my reply above this post for August 21 and you'll understand. I was in that church from 2005 till 2007, when I met my future husband. He told me that my lifegroup leader discouraged him from having a relationship with me and that was the last straw. I had to experience that for me to see that this church is bad news. I hope your son isn't still in this church or that he's finally seeing it differently. I did read a book called Twisted Scriptures earlier, before I ended my discipleship because I was starting to see some similarities. If he's still going there, I would casually ask him what he's learned in his involvements and if something doesn't line up with scripture, ask him if he agrees with what Antioch says based on a verse. If you can get him engaged in his own thought of the verse and he sees any red flags, it may help. I hope what I said helps anyway, good luck, be patient for him to come around, and let him know if he has doubts, it's okay to research and he won't be sinning against God. He is supposed to "test the spirits" and it says that in the Bible.
DeleteAMEN!!!! to this comment above! I am fighting against ACC-Waco and I am trying to connect to EVERY person that that church has hurt! I no longer there but I would love to start a support group or something because I know I need it and others need it! feel free to find me on all social media, call/text me 254-3012068, or email mgracia254@gmail.com They will not get away with what they did to people!!!
DeleteI don't know how I stumbled across this blog, but I go to Antioch in Waco as well, and I'm currently a college student. My heart hurts and goes out to everyone who has been scarred or hurt by the church, regardless of what church it was. I know God does not intend for his children to be hurt or left scarred from a "church," but he wants us to be able to encounter him there and experience him in truth.
ReplyDeleteMy relationship with Jesus has been so much more intimate than before I came to Antioch. I've learned to have more intimate times with Jesus in the morning by reading his Word and talking with him, and I've also learned so much through discipleship. All the teaching I've listened to has been so Biblically based and the leaders are obviously immersing themselves in the bible everyday. I don't want to just sit here typing up defenses because there shouldn't be anything to defend because in reality, I have found community and people who have such joy and love for the Lord that I should be content, but my heart hurts for all those who have been burned, because something obviously happened to make them feel that way. I've come to realize that no church in perfect, and yes, there are some people who go to Antioch who say the wrong things, might act out in a weird way, and might not always get things right, including myself, but we're all imperfect beings right? We aren't perfect and we aren't ever going to form a perfect church, but that's why we have a perfect creator who loves all of us the same, regardless of, well, everything. I pray that the Lord heals all who have been hurt in Jesus name. Know that there are people here at ACC who do truly love the Lord and have a strong Biblical base and grace because we are all on this journey of learning and discovering Jesus in his fullness.
I also think for healing, it can be good to talk with a leader or someone with wisdom from the church that burned you and tell them what hurt you or why you left. Whether it was a bad experience or a misunderstanding, I think God can heal in this way. After all, we aren't here to pursue a perfect church, but a perfect God, so as long as we are growing closer to him and discovering more of his fullness each day, then the name of a church should not matter. I hope everyone is able to find healing and peace from any and every situation left unsettled!
This is comical! Do you not hear yourself?!!! Brainwashed!!! I am sick of y'all saying "We are not a PERFECT church!" no church in waco or around the world is perfect but stop using that as an excuse to hurt people!!!! You need to get out that Antioch clique and move around a little so you can realize how Jesus brainwashed you are! Here is my number if you want to take this convo further 254-301-2068!
DeleteI cannot believe I’m actually going to give this blog any of my time. Over the years a few things about it have increasingly bothered me, so I’m going to dedicate a brief about of time and space to expose the weakness of this blog. I am a Baylor professor and a ten year Antioch Community Church member. My motive is to alleviate the fears of people whose family members attend this church.
ReplyDeleteFirst, anytime any group calls its members to radical obedience, it’s going to be dubbed cult-like. What Antioch does well, and what other churches could stand to learn, is that it asks the congregation to radically, wholly, and completely be obedient to scripture and to what the Lord is speaking. The emphasis placed on spiritual obedience and authority is twofold. First, this church wants to bring God glory in all that it does. Second, this church wants people to experience God’s best, His absolute holiness all the days of their life. Really, the relationship between church and body is not much different than that of father and child. And if you have a sound theological understanding of New Testament churches, you know how biblical this model is.
Second, let us consider some of the people associated with this church, and then ask ourselves whether or not we trust their character. World-renowned speakers such as Max Lucado, Christine Cain, Floyd McClung, and even President of Baylor, Judge Ken Starr, have all graced Antioch’s pulpit. The children of respectable Christian leaders like Max Lucado, Steven Curtis Chapman, and Beth Moore, have attended ACC. Popular Christian artists like Kari Jobe, Shane and Shane, Phil Whickham, and even Chris Tomlin have relationships here. It’s difficult to believe that all of these respected, influential Christian leaders were duped by ACC.
Third, why has little been said about how much this church does for the Waco community and the world? The leadership intentionally planted in the most crime ridden part of Waco. They built homes for themselves and community members. Since their establishment, the crime rate has exponentially decreased. If I am not mistaken, 10% of all the church’s tithe goes directly into the Waco community. For instance, when Waco isd cut school breakfast from their budget, ACC picked up the tab. And to what world disaster has ACC not humbly offered their services? They have built villages in Sri Lanka and Haiti; they organized a medical and supply team after Katrina hit New Orleans, and they did the same for Japan. Every ACC church plant, with which I am familiar, walks out in similar values.
Fourth, and lastly, we would be foolish not to ask: who is espousing such hurtful rhetoric? The truth is, we don’t know. This blogger remains anonymous. I would imagine it’s difficult for any discerning person to trust this male(?) female(? )who hides behind anonymity. What clout, what right does this person have to attack such a church so highly esteemed by tens of thousands? Really, friends, we should take little credence in this blog. Instead, I find myself extending grace to someone who had an unfortunate experience and allowed him or herself to get bitter rather than better.
As a previous leader from an ACC church, I can say ACC did nothing but confuse my relationship with the Lord for many years after I attended and was in leadership there. This is the second toxic church I have encountered in my life. I came to ACC in hope of finding relief from my years as a child growing up in a radial evangelical church that ran my family out when my parents got divorced. It wasn't until I stepped into leadership at ACC that I realized what this church was really about. It took me a long time to get the courage to leave. The people I worked with believed they were more important than everyone else and the way they talked to members of the church made it seem like they could never be like them. My relationship with God was constantly being judged and examined. I always felt like there was a "picture perfect" relationship with god that ACC sold to its members. I saw many people become disappointed in their own relationship with the Lord because they felt like they couldn't attain what ACC taught was a healthy relationship with God.
DeleteYeah, ACC does some good stuff. But this church has a lot of underlying issue that are associated with the people who lead it. I have seen the ugly side of the ACC ministry. And it bothered me enough spiritually to never want to go back there ever again. It has taken me a long time to heal my relationship with God.
And I just have to address you on one thing you said at the end of your post...Don't be calling the blogger out on being anonymous when you yourself a writing anonymously as well. Its really just hypocritical.
Perhaps my decision to remain anonymous has an air of hypocrisy; still, I would like to point out that I am not trying to single handedly take down an entire church movement with hurtful rhetoric on a public blog. For that reason, my identity matters not. Also, that fact that you've been a part of TWO "toxic churches" really discredits you.
DeleteWell said Anonymous Professor. As a Southern Baptist Seminary student I am an anomaly in my local Antioch Church. So far I've seen nothing judgmental, heard nothing heretical, and have nothing but praise for what God is doing through this church movement.
DeleteMy distinct issues with this blog and many of the comments made is that there is little to nothing redeeming about them, there seems to be far too many people who leave the church not because God isn't there and they become more impassioned elsewhere, but instead God is there and they don't like the high cost of discipleship. To encourage people to leave the church and spend time in isolation isn't remotely scriptural, and displays a lack of wisdom. A wise man, former missionary and current president of the IMB once said: "It is folly to seek counsel from people who do not themselves seek counsel from God" -Tom Elliff
I would just plead with readers of this blog and the following comments to take into account the level of integrity displayed in the writers. Someone bashing the church and still living with bitterness in their heart probably isn't the best person to paint a clear, Godly picture of something they are living in sin against (Matthew 7).
Brother Smee, it is not sin to speak the truth -- and if there is abuse or problems in a congregation, then it is biblical and healthy to bring these issues to the light and deal with them. I mean, isn't what the book of Galatians is about -- along with several other passages in the New Testament?
DeleteI personally have witnessed more than one person judged as "living in sin" simply for attempting to point out scriptural error, and leaving because leadership refused to repent when confronted. So, I would plead with you, Brother: please be careful in your asssessment of us, lest you mistake our motivations and character. And for those of us who have been harmed, rather than look down on us, why not work to help restore us? Wouldn't that be more beneficial to us all?
Do not judgment and condemnation just serve to keep us divided? Where I am guilty of such things, I do desire to repent. Please, can't we work things out?
We speak here, because we haven't felt heard out by leadership at ACC when we have tried to approach them. Some of us probably do struggle with bitterness; but others of us -- myself included -- ultimately do wish no ill will, and desire for things to work out.
I'd gladly be in fellowship right now, and reading the Scriptures. But, in the season of recovery I've been in, I have needed to trust God to provide me with new fellowship. Because of the amount of Bible abuse I've had to put up with from many folks in Evangelical Christianity, I've had to take a hiatus from the Scriptures, too. I realize that the Scriptures are important. I get that. But, I need to be able to get to the point that I can read the Scriptures without my mind drifting into errant teachings I have been taught -- and that has been easier said than done. I am doing the best I can for the moment. I thank God that that is good enough for Him, and that He is fully capable of keeping me secure in Him in this transition and hopefully eventual healing and restoration process. But right now, no, I cannot measure up to your standards. But that doesn't mean that I don't belong to Christ. Please, my Brother, would you not be inclined to withhold judgment and show us the kindness that many of us have not experienced in a long while? That would be a lot more helpful for us in the healing process.
One other thing I'd point out: a babe in Christ is still in Christ. So, could we please accept our brothers and sisters, despite our disagreements? I'd be much obliged. All the best to you, Brother Smee! =)
I'd also point out, with regards to the "two toxic churches" issue: the toxicity characteristic of unhealthy churches and cults tend not to manifest themselves until after one has become fairly involved in the group.
DeleteAnyone can be affected, and it can happen more than once, because people will initially be deceived by the group, or because the abuse will be too subtle to discern at first.
True, some of us who have been affected may have issues, and that can be the primary difficulty; but it could instead be abuse, or even conflict among believers. Or, it could be any combination of those factors. The bottom line is that we simply may not know.
I believe that we should do what we can to help resolve the conflicts among us, without discrediting people or taking sides, but rather, by establishing facts.
This does make me realize that I probably haven't been fair to Antioch. I think that mistakes were made in my situation, and that the situation was complicated. Please forgive me where I have caused offense. I speak up, mostly because I remember how we treated people who disagreed with us. It was not good.
I disliked how leaders at Antioch-Waco tended to have more credibility than non-leaders, and especially moreso than those who disagreed with leadership. That authority differential bothers me whenever I find it, because it really does strike me as a form of favoritism. This was just a common and observable problem at Antioch-Waco when I was there -- and is probably one of the key reasons why Antioch's dissident blogs exist.
professor...i haven't been to any of your churches, but have observed similar church organizations. as well, i studied 'group dynamics' in graduate school, and learned a lot about human behavior in such systems. i don't think you see, as a male with great status in the community, what the writers of this blog are trying so hard to explain. you can be sure that many women who have left your church have endured an abundance of slights and patronizing treatment that you have never experienced. apparently your church is attempting to replicate the early church experience. antioch seems to be sure they have found the perfect model to follow and have interpreted the sketchy accounts of early gatherings properly. it sounds like you have decided that unchallenged authority by 'leaders' is a key...and grateful obedience to those placed over members is the pathway to godly harmony. unfortunately, humans vary in their response to the authoritarian approach. and i very seriously doubt any group has been so keenly brilliant that they alone have seen just how the early church functioned. especially in the area of authority and obedience. pick away at the new testament long enough and you can find a pattern that fits your personality and spiritual views.
Deleteat first, new members are ecstatic at finding a 'home', and people to parent them and give them a sense of family and community. but the price of this new security is, again, obedience to leadership, and conformity to the rigid rule of the church's concepts of spirituality. not much room for flexibility or challenging the church's take on things, i'd say.
antioch is doing its thing, it works for certain types of people. people who look good, are confident, have community status and lovely homes and good jobs will likely be catered to, and treated quite differently than the 'least of us'.
it would be good and fair to listen to the complaints and comments and stories that members who left the church have to tell. a humble leadership would do that and would even change things if certain points continued to be raised. watch out for pride, you know where that leads. every human, even professors, can learn a lot by keeping his or her mind open and listening. thanks for listening to what i've had to say. judith rael
Wow, this is amazing how so many people can see things so differently but that's the way God made us! I am sure there are many blogs similar to this about mega church's or bigger church's across the world. I have read many times about what huge church's are doing to tear down what the church should really be doing but that's not what these guys want to do. Its sad to see a few peoples experiences with certain people at Antioch destroy someones perception of this church who does so much to build up this community and doing much more than other local church's. Every church that exist has issues, differences, etc... read Corinthians and how Paul addressed concerns in love. When you find the perfect church please let me know because seriously it doesn't exist. You know, I have seen people at Antioch say some things i don't agree with but why would I discredit an entire group of people because of a few comments, or some misconceptions. How can you not see this blog fueling hatered towards these people... man, God doesn's want you to hate anyone or anything and you don't have to be a scholar to know that. Hanging on to this hostility has to be hard and its only hurting you because life goes on and Antioch goes on man! Please don't feel I am coming down on you but I just can't believe you guys feel this way about anyone. I've yet to read any examples of something that was so strange. So Antioch is different from what you thought and now you've moved on. If they are so guilty at indoctrine people with bad theology, you guys can be just as guilty for indoctrine and confusing Gods people yourselves. Like many church's that aren't perfect, I can share with you many drug addicts, drug traffickers, thieves, poor, rich, etc... whose lives have been changed forever because of good church's like this. Man, don't let your experience, anger, and or whatever you have do this. No matter what you say or what examples you give, nothing can explain your hostility... you know why, because God says to always forgive and I know your bible is the same as mine. You can pray your mind out, read your bible, live without sin, go to a good church,but its obvious your holding on to anger and I hate to say it but God won't speak through that anger bro. I wish I knew what went wrong with you but there are many like that, I truly hope you hear me out, all of you.
ReplyDeleteMuch Love and much respect for speaking out!
-D
Okay, you said near the end that you wish you knew what was wrong with the person, and then said before that they're hating. Excuse me but you never got burned by a leader there, did you? It is okay if they feel anger, not like he's gonna burn down an ACC but people should be able to share their experiences on here and then an ACC advocate says "don't be angry, bro!" and it probably makes them feel invalidated. Maybe you were lucky enough to not have these experiences but let other people who did express their feelings without having their mouth get washed out for them.
DeleteI understand where you are coming from! You're right no church is perfect! In my experience I felt like my relationship with God crumbled. And I take full responsibility! Whether it was because a lack on my end, or people at ACC, or a mixture of the two it still happened. And I am just glad I can relate to others.
DeleteThe Church is where Christians should feel called to, but I don't think that means you can't be friends with people who aren't Christian! Or if you decide to have your own bible study on Sunday instead of going to church, that it's okay you're not sinning! I personally am not angry with ACC! I have a lot of sweet memories from there. I learned a lot. But I figured out after taking a step back that I had a lot of hurt that I couldn't explain. Friends that stopped talking to me the second I left after 2yrs of attending. It was very frustrating.
Also, you've had two "toxic" church's in your life. I'm sure you'll find a 3rd, 4th, 5th.... Man just let go of what your holding to. You don't have to go back to ACC but man God doesn't desire this. Your not exposing anything for God or doing his will. I really wish I could know more about you and your situation. Breaks my heart!
ReplyDeleteWhat breaks MY heart is that I never knew so many of my friends were never real friends until I left Antioch. What breaks MY heart is that all of you current members are so involved that you have no idea of your dependence and codependence on one another and on Jimmy. I have been where some of you are. I challenge you to let your true relationship with God grow by going away for 30 days. Stay involved with believers somewhere ELSE, but temporarily cut off communication with ACCers. After a month, you will have had a significant enough break from the relational addiction that you now misguidedly believe is your relationship with Jesus. It breaks MY heart that you guys probably won't ever do this. But then again, maybe you will. Don't disregard warnings from hurt people just because you are not hurt. Wisdom comes with age and experience, and I know many of the posters here possess both. Peace to you.
ReplyDeleteWOW...buck up people. Faith is between you and God. Not anyone else. We all stumble and fall short of the glory of God from time to time. If any church, person, etc. treats you any different because of it...run, run quickly. Anyone that discounts your own thoughts and beliefs is trying to control you an manipulate you into something.
ReplyDeleteMost Antiochers I've known, have been taught or conditioned to stay submitted to the church leaders over them, so many Antiochers may view leaving Antioch as a serious sin. Moreover, though, especially after a while, they can become dependent or even co-dependent on their leaders and not know how to handle their faith as individuals.
DeleteWhile I was there, Antioch valued church fellowship and made individual faith seem kinda sinful, in my opinion. So, relearning to take personal responsibility for one's faith can take time. I do believe that Antioch may have since tried to counter this difficulty with teachings on personal responsibility in one's faith, but I don't know anymore which mentality is more common.
Buck up? Really?? Have you ever allowed yourself to reveal your heart, laid bare to another person, only to be crushed and rejected later in the name of JESUS? Repeatedly?? Because of someone's misguided word from the "Lord"? If not, consider yourself exponentially lucky. Men are devious, evil, selfish beings.Antioch just happens to EMPOWER this idiotic behavior by putting immature Christians in positions of authority. This is so very sad. Buck up indeed...but RUN, don't walk, to another church.
ReplyDeleteThis. THIS.
DeleteI mostly second / "third" what Sierra and Anon of Nov. 28, 2012 wrote. Well, except that I believe that people are made in God's image but do harmful things, because of sin, not because we are inherently and entirely evil. I suspect that these guys ultimately also agree with me on this, but that we've all been on the receiving end of harm, perhaps moreso at Antioch than elsewhere. Hence the sentiment.
DeleteI think that Antioch is well-intended, but has a lot to learn about healthy leadership, people's personal boundaries, and treating people well.
GET OVER YOURSELF. Seriously. Get healed and get on with your life.
ReplyDeleteThree things, Anon 12-12-12 / 11:53PM:
Delete1. We'd love to and are doing our best to do so! I and probably many others have made the choice to forgive, even though we may live with residual challenges for some time yet. Forgiveness is a choice, not a feeling -- and this is something Antioch-Waco taught me. I agree with Antioch on this one.
2. We're here not so much for ourselves, as for others -- to warn new folks of perceived ongoing problems with the Antioch Movement and to provide what comfort, encouragement and insight we can in the healing process, so that others can recover quicker than we older-school former Antiochers. I am here as a witness, remembering that Jesus came to set us free (Galatians 5:1). There is hope and healing, but it can take: time; education regarding spiritual abuse / cult practices; exit counseling; and the development of a support base as we heal.
3. Your words are not helpful in our healing process. They are rude and insensitive.
For those of you recovering / struggling:
I'd recommend reading Galatians and educating yourselves regarding: covering theology; spiritual abuse; cult characteristics; cult withdrawal; cult exit counseling; and recovery from spiritual abuse. I also recommend surrounding yourselves with supportive friends and family as you heal. Remember: we can find actual rest in Jesus -- his yoke is supposed to be easy -- his burden on us is supposed to be light (Matthew 11:28-30). It's not about pressure, control, lording it over others, etc. Rest assured, that junk is not from God. If I hear from you, I can provide the Bible passages I use, if that would help you.
I second Linda's points: I have forgiven many individuals and have been working on healing relationships with people who were a part of my pain at ACC Waco - some who are actually still with AMI. We are working things out individually, but the structural issues and the reality of what happened remains - and for the sake of future people, this is a conversation worth having.
DeleteHealed and doing fine, seriously. I post here to lend an ear and offer advice to those still attending ACC. This is not about me. I remember how hard it was to break away from this church, and I know from experience that people need support from time to time. I do not hate the church or its people. I only posted to this blog to offer help.
ReplyDeletePlease help me know how to encourage my college student to break away from this place. only been attending a short time but already engaged in a foreign mission trip, with very little planning. Frightening! The only answers I get are "God will provide, we're being led by the Spirit"... It's maddening.
DeleteHmmm, God providing and being led by the Spirit are maddening? Most of the people in the Bible that did anything noteworthy were led by the Spirit, including Jesus and Paul.
DeleteIt is also worth noting that all of Scripture shows God providing for His people.
I can imagine the fear you're feeling because it sounds as if this is not like any Christianity you have ever seen before. But you have to admit that it all lines up with actions taken in the Bible.
As someone who didn't grow up in church and found God in the midst of drugs, booze and legal troubles, I know what being led by the Spirit actually means. When you have nobody and nothing besides the Holy Spirit and Word of God, He truly becomes your best friend and guide in life. He led me out of a heretical Church of Christ and into a charismatic mega church I loved. I later was called to serve in a Southern Baptist Church which later sent me off to Seminary where I am currently working on a MDiv in Missiology. I've recently started going to an Antioch Church and am thoroughly impressed with everything I have seen thus far. They are little light on theological teaching Sunday morning, but there is a great debate amongst evangelicals over the emphasis for Sunday morning, deep theological teaching for the church, or more surface level messages for the lost. Most seminary churches around here lean towards the former, and they lean towards the latter. As an evangelist, I also lean more towards the latter. As a seminary student, I also crave the former, but like has been said by many before, there is no perfect church. But I assure you, as a man who has worshiped with charismatics all over the east coast and south america, Catholics, episcopals, baptists, etc, the folks at Antioch get the mission and message of God and doing very well to fulfill the great commission.
@Anonymous mom from April 23rd... Please do not pay any attention to this self-involved and pompous "Ismee" blogger, and please do hang in there. Keep being there for your child. My advice as a former long and short term ACC missionary is that you need to support him or her minimally without repetitive confrontational opposition. The more you oppose, the more your kid will believe the enemy is using you as a tool against him/her. At a minimum, they will develop a martyr's complex, believing they are suffering for the sake of the Kingdom of God. They will also make you a target for spiritual conversion of sorts, praying and talking to you often about developing a relationship with the Holy Spirit (which "clearly" you must not know due to your lack of understanding...this is common). Maybe let your concerns be known once with precise and logical clarity, and then back off. I remember when I was living overseas and later when I returned to the US, I came to appreciate my dad's wisdom so much more. There would have been absolutely NOTHING he could have said or done to deter me from my perception of God's plan for me. The leadership at ACC may have good intentions, but their methods for recruiting, training, and sending missionaries are extremely harmful. They lead you to constantly surrender your will to the Lord, which sounds great, until you get some distance and perspective and later realize you were actually just submitting to the will of leadership. Anyway, please do not give up. Just keep loving and listening to your son or daughter. He or she will eventually come around.
DeleteThanks @Resplendentprism.
DeleteI do agree with most of your advice for the mother in being there and lovingly pleading with them how she feels led by the Spirit.
I unfortunately don't know enough about their missionary organizations to dispute what you have said. The only thing I do know about them in regards to missions is that I have many friends who love the Lord greatly and share the gospel fervently and testify in large part to it being because of an ACC short term mission trip. Many of them stepped out in faith, not having the funds to go but believing the Lord will provide and He not only provided the funds, but grew their faith tremendously as they stepped out.
So I am not sure how their leadership in missions work, but I do know that their approach in discipleship is to teach people how to fully rely on God, cultivating a deep and rich personal relationship with God. This approach scripturally should enable them to walk by faith, in discernment, and see truth clearly. JESUS is the good Sheppard, not the pastors at ACC, and the Holy Spirit is the one to lead those that seek Him in truth and life.
I apologize if I came off pompous, reading back through my post it does sound that way, and I am sorry, it wasn't my intention.
Dear Resplendentprism, You encouragement to the mom of April 23 was also a deep encouragement to me. I do believe you are right about not creating multiple confrontations, and it takes firm resolve not to. The hardest thing for me right now is that I have seen AMI blithely send my children into physically dangerous situations. Leaders listen to my concerns but do nothing at all different. My child dismisses all warning because they have been told to expect that "a parent will never agree to allow you into a dangerous situation." Do you have any experience or counsel on this?
DeleteJesus also "sent his children into physically dangerous situations." Still does. Many are/were martyred...a very foreign concept for the western church. ACC wrestles with parental concerns about their kids being sent to "danger." They even pulled out of regular Spring outreach to Juarez because of danger.
DeleteI'm sorry to hear that they didn't head to Juarez, due to risk of danger. I do believe that ACC does try in good faith to balance parental concerns (safety, health) with the Great Commission. If they're not going on a trip, then I'm sure they have good reason for that.
DeleteI went to Antioch for 10 years. It was wonderful. I don't recall anybody asking me to check my brain in at the door. As a matter of fact, all I remember from almost every sermon I ever heard was to love Jesus, look to scripture for authority, and walk with other believers in accountability, which yes, includes vulnerability and trust. Was it ever messy? Yes, because this church is made up of humans. I've been to 4 churches since due to moving cities, and every one of them were messy. Not sure why God puts up with us or ANY of our churches (talk about high maintenance bride), but His patience is amazing.
ReplyDeleteAmen!
DeleteAs a graduate level theological student, I've tried pulling apart their doctrine and practices and found it was a waste of time. But that was silly because a colleague of mine, far smarter than I, 2nd in his class at Baylor, attested to the same thing.
I am currently "dabbling" in Antioch and while many aspects of its ministry really draw me in others make me anxious. However, the bottom line is, if you are walking with God and being obedient the whatever failures you perceive or encounter with other believers or leadership should not discourage you. All that points to is putting your faith in humans rather than Christ. We all fall short of the glory of God but I believe the most powerful testament is how we recover from these stumbles, shoot how my leadership recovers from their stumbles is a HUGE encouragement. I'm saying I rejoice in the failures or sins of my fellow believers, I rejoice in their renewed faith and strength in Christ to overcome those things. They WILL disappoint you, but God won't. If you've been hurt by leadership your faith may have been misdirected into people rather than our Father. I'm still not sure if I can handle Antioch, but I have NO doubt those people are following Christ joyously, and obediently for the sake of the world's salvation. We need to be warning others against the work of the enemy, not infighting and throwing pity parties. Rise to your calling and put your efforts into winning others to Christ, those who are not being obedient will dealt with by God himself, he doesn't need our help with that, please focus on what truly matters here and that is the salvation of those who do not know God. If you have been hurt take your time to heal but pick up your sword for the lost and get back in there!
ReplyDeletePREACH!
DeleteAnon of March 21, 2013, 11:36AM:
DeleteWell, actually, I've come across multiple passages in the New Testament where heretical teachings and abusive leadership were confronted for the purpose of protecting God's flock. In fact, I'm not sure Paul would have written the letter to the Galatians, had he not believed in protecting God's flock. Ezekiel seemed to value protecting the flock as well (Ezekiel 34), and even Jesus didn't have the nicest things to say about the religious leaders of his day, either. One example would be Matthew 23. So.... I think there is a place for speaking up and saying that harmful practices in the Church are not ok.
As for Antioch, until you yourself have been on the receiving end of the difficulties, you may not realize how damaging the junk can be. From what I understand, I am not the only one whose witness for Christ appeared to be adversely impacted due to my involvement with Antioch. I am told, too, that one of my friends is no longer a Christian, and that it is due at least in part to how Antioch treated him. So while sharing Christ with folks is what we should be doing, I believe that there very much is a place for speaking up against harmful practices in the Church as well.
As for your claim that it was due to us putting our faith in human leaders, well, I for one felt extremely pressured at Antioch-Waco into doing just that. It seemed to me that that's essentially what Antioch taught and / or implied through all the teachings we would receive on leadership, obedience and submission. I did not want to do this, but Antioch's use of Bible verses to back up these teachings confused me and caused me to place my faith in human leaders instead. I wasn't sure how to stand against Antioch's use of Bible passages in support of us putting our faith in human leaders. Otherwise, I would have worked to stand up to this junk. It was not until recently that I was able to recognize that this is likely what happened. I never intended to replace the Lord with human leaders; but since learning this, I have repented.
As for warning others against the work of the enemy, that's precisely what we dissenters are trying to do. I apologize if our testimonies come across as infighting or throwing pity parties. We're just trying to protect God's flock and find healing for ourselves, that's all.
Oh, and Anon, I do agree with you regarding the importance of the Great Commission! I just prefer for church congregations to be healthy faith communities that can be entrusted with new believers.
DeleteI am plenty happy to share Christ and direct new believers to congregations that have a reputation of being healthy. It's congregations that have reputations of being unhealthy that concern me -- and those congregations are precisely the ones I recommend new believers in particular to avoid.
ACC presently, as since their inception, has been regarded as very healthy.
DeleteA congregation is not healthy when members cannot approach leaders with their concerns. And I witnessed that multiple times when I was there. The reports I've received in the past year or so would indicate that there are still problems in the movement, and that there likely will be here and there for some time yet.
DeleteThank you all for sharing...I have precious loved ones at Antioch Church..we are hearing of abuse for the first time...however..our whole family has wondered about their changes going on for some time...we are a Christian family...I have attended off and on and now am beginning to research...want to know what happened to my loved ones that made them become so radical and unresponsive to our warnings...would like to talk further with you Lynda..
DeleteI began going to A.C.C. as something of a "lapsed atheist". I had recently relinquished my atheism and adopted a more-or-less deist position by the time I found Antioch Community Church Waco. I guess that it would be fair to say that I was a "seeker". I wanted to find religious truth in the universe and Antioch was the place where I begun my journey after leaving the shadowlands of atheism. Prior to become an atheist, I had been raised as a Roman Catholic and by the time I begun going to Antioch, I still held a view of church governance and doctrine which was considerably influenced by that of the Roman Catholic Church. While I wasn't a staunch supporter of the papacy, the system of the seven sacraments or like components of the Catholic Church, I still held a very traditional view of how things ought to proceed in a church. I liked to see highly educated clergy men, intellectually sophisticated preaching, elaborate church décor, a less democratic structure of church governance and an emphasis on historical tradition. However, Antioch was a church unlike that which I known before and there was something about it which just attracted me to it. While this "something" is a complex "something" composed of many different parts, I think that the thing that kept me attracted to Antioch in my earlier days of attendance was the worship. James Mark Gulley, Johanna Six and the worship band regularly put on amazing performances of contemporary worship pieces which really ushered in the presence of the Holy Spirit. The freedom of expression allowed to the congregation during the worship services allowed for communion with God which I had never experienced in any time in my life. Despite the fact that I wasn't yet a Christian due to my skepticism about foundational doctrines of the faith, the sheer power of the spiritual experience I felt during the worship services gradually made me more and more interested in discovering the truth of Christianity. In retrospect, I believe that it was this interest in discovering the truth of Christianity that has led my current thoughts about Antioch. For it was this interest which led me to begin studying theology in my spare time.
ReplyDeleteInitially, I really enjoyed the sermons which succeeded the worship services. Being new to involved church attendance, I found Pastor Seibert to be a powerful and thoughtful minister of the Gospel who challenged his congregation to consistently live a God-centered life. He seemed to interact thoroughly with Sacred Scripture and incorporate interesting theological insight into his Sunday Morning orations. Like many members of the church, I saw him as a heroic figure who diligently worked to usher in the kingdom of God in Waco Texas. His vision about this town as being a bastion of Christian cultural revival in the coming years of the twenty-first century struck me with awe.
As I continued my involvement with Antioch, I came to get involved with the college life-group sections and from my involvement with them came closer to full assent to faith in Christ. I made new friends in life-group who were genuinely dedicated to following Christ. They were unlike any people that I had met before. Their love for God and others drew me into the community and led me to begin attending the Wednesday night college service called "Dwelling Place." Dwelling Place truly revolutionized my perspective on the Christian life. The love of the new community that I had entered into inspired me to take my inquiries into the truth of Christianity even more seriously. So, I began studying Christology. Knowing that Christianity was founded on the person of Jesus of Nazareth, I knew where to go if I was to discover whether or not the faith was true. "Was Jesus the Incarnate Son of God?" I thought. "Was Jesus raised from the grave on the first Easter Sunday?" With these questions in mind, I began to research the foundational doctrines of the faith.
As I began to seriously study Christian theology, I gradually became more interested in the faith. As I read about Jesus' ministry I found myself in awe of this Jewish leader from Nazareth. He was a figure unlike any other I had encountered in reading. As I read about Jesus I continued to be involved with the college life-group. There I was blessed enough to meet a group of young men who were deeply interested in the intellectual aspects of the Christian faith and enjoyed having thoughtful conversations about theology. The studies of Jesus combined with these discussions gradually moved me closer to the throne of our Lord.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I noticed, that as study and discussion of doctrine moved me closer to Christ, it seemed to be moving me further away from Antioch's Sunday morning services. I was beginning to love Christian doctrine and would soon truly love the Lord Jesus Christ. I was starting to enjoy a Christianity with a robust intellectual foundation, a Christianity that is rooted in a systematic understanding of Holy Scripture and historical tradition, a Christianity defined by thoughtful preaching.
In the course of my studies of Christology, I realized that this was lacking at A.C.C.
This has gradually been what has led me away from the church. It's non-denominational position has cut it off from any historical tradition; the Sunday morning preaching is focused more on simple "life-lessons" than the majesty of Christian doctrine; people can become "pastors" without any academic theological training and the effect of this on the sophistication of the church is ever-so evident. After I began to attend other churches around Waco, these facts became readily apparent to me. Having experienced other types of Christianity on the theological spectrum, I don't think that I'll ever be able to love Antioch as I once did.
Now, I sit here on a Sunday morning, having recently come to assent to faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior. As a new member of the heavenly kingdom, I reflect on a church I once loved, and am led to consider the very real possibility of leaving it soon. I don't wish to divide the body of Christ and must admit that it was at Antioch that I've come to know some of the most amazing Christians that I've ever met. The church has truly transformed many-a-life.
Where to go? First United Methodist? Redeemer Presbyterian? Seventh and James Baptist? Only time will tell. Wherever the journey may lead, however, it will surely be fun.
-M. Michael Contreras
I can relate to everything you wrote here having somewhat of the same background as you have. I have to say that I was part of a church in California, Harvest Christian Fellowship, where the Sunday services were similar to Antioch Sunday services, except Pastor Greg Laurie had a passion for teaching The Word. He went through the Bible, so Sunday service was more of an ongoing Bible study, but it was more of a light study. Whereas Harvest also had a great Wednesday night study that was more thorough and in depth by pastor Jeff L. (forgot how to spell his last name lol). And then they had many groups to participate in. I so greatly miss this church and have been seeking one similar here for years now. I am non-denominational, and wish to stay non-denominational. I just want to be in a healthy Bible teaching church where the churches main focus is getting the congregation to know God's Word. His Word is our guide. One big thing I noticed in visiting Antioch twice was that most people did not bring Bibles, whereas Harvest Christian Fellowship everyone brought their personal Bibles and I believe this churches main concern was encouraging the congregation to know and read their Bible daily.
DeleteM. Michael Contreras,
DeleteThat is beautiful! Thank you for sharing. I am glad that Antioch has impacted you and many others in a positive way. I wish you well in your journey with the Lord, my brother. Blessings to you! = )
Jesus also sent out his followers with no "academic theological training."
DeleteI am writing first as the mother of an ACC'er who began his involvement as a Baylor student, but secondly as one who has been blessed and emboldened in my own faith through frequently listening to sermons on the church's website. When my son first became involved in ACC, I felt some of the misgivings others have expressed here. But as time has gone on, I have been thankful for the strong emphasis on scripture memory and the many ways he has been used of God, both in Waco and around the world. My prayer for both of my sons from the time they were born is that they would love God, love people, and marry Godly women who also loved God and loved people. Through ACC, my son found such a girl,one whose passion for Jesus and for people is a perfect match for his. They lead a life group together, and at their engagement party the house was packed with probably 80 young people who shared story after story of how my son and his then fiancée had blessed them wnd encouraged them as they went through hard times. It was a joyful experience that blessed me beyond measure. Just a few months after they were married, I was diagnosed in April of 2012 with fairly advanced breast cancer. During the following 9 months so chemo and radiation, as I stayed home from my own church due to my weakened immune system, I listened to sermons from ACC each Sunday. I found them to be biblically based and rekindled in me a furvor for obedience to Christ and a heart for the lost in our country as well as the nations of the world. As I have continued to struggle in my cancer battle through surgeries and other setbacks, I have been continually encouraged and impassioned to live expectantly and with my eyes open to opportunities even in my pain and health struggles for opportunities to share the love of Jesus and the incredible power of God to bring me through this journey as I interact with medical personnel and others. There are things that I'm not fully on board with in ACC's beliefs and no church is perfect. At my own church, the sermons are more like seminary classes --only longer, and it's impossible to experience worship through the Puritan prayers set to music with about 12 verses each sung with all the passion of a funeral dirge. I've got the ACC worship teams albums on my iPod. They help me find faith and rest at bedtime with such comforting songs as "God of the Impossible" - such a comfort as I face the unpredictability of cancer -- and in the morning they draw me into God's presence for my quiet times. I'm sorry for those who for whatever reason feel they have been hurt by this church. But I am thankful for the many ways it has blessed my life.
ReplyDeleteDear Writer & Commentators,
ReplyDeleteWhen you find a perfect church, please let me know.
Till then, remember that a church is a bunch of imperfect people turning their hearts toward a perfect God.
As with any other organization (school, club, country), there will be ideologies, rules and cultures that govern behavior. If one no longer wishes to conform, then one must find another place.
It's pretty simple to me.
I attended ACC Waco as an undergrad at Baylor and I too got a little uneasy sometimes. But I understood why. And figured out what to do about it.
Your responsibility as a Christian requires you NOT to bear false witness. False witness includes painting an imbalanced picture that could lead others astray. Be careful.
read your bible if you want to please God have a relationship with him. any one can have religion its just a name. a relationship is a personal thing just you and him. Seek him beware of false teachings and wolves in sheeps clothing. ask for dissernment
DeleteAnon of October 20, 2013, 3:59PM:
DeleteWell, I agree that the Church this side of eternity is imperfect. However, I am still concerned for the sake of those who have had to "recover" from Antioch. That goes beyond normal imperfections in a given congregation / parish.
As for rules and the like: if a church congregation / parish belongs to Jesus Christ, then her rules and such should be those of the Bible, not man-made rules. I thought that our responsibility as believers was to accept one another (Romans 15:1-13), not turn away fellow Christians who believe different things on non-essential issues. Weren't the religious leaders of Jesus' day -- the ones he denounced -- the ones who were doing this?
As for not bearing false witness, you are right about our responsibility to speak the truth. My time with Antioch benefited me in some ways. It's just that in my case, the difficulties outweighed the benefits. I observed Antioch to play a bit of an unhealthy / harmful role in my life and in the lives of some of my friends. To deny this would, for me, be bearing false witness. But you are right: I got plugged in and stayed in part because there was good mixed in with the difficulties.
Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The foundation of the problem with this corporation is found in the first part of what they believe:
ReplyDeleteTHE BIBLE
We believe the Bible is the inspired, authoritative, living, eternally-reliable Word of God. We believe it is without error in its original manuscript, absolutely infallible, and our source of supreme revelation from God, superior to conscience and reason, though not contrary to reason. It is therefore our infallible rule of faith and practice and necessary to our daily lives. [II Timothy 3:16-17; I Peter 1:23-25; Hebrews 4:12 NASB]
The error is in the "origanal manuscrpipt" clause. There are no existing "original manuscripts" in the world; only copies of copies of copies.......So by the corporation's own testimony they don't have the " inspired, authoritative, living, eternally-reliable Word of God" because they don't have the original manuscripts; no one does. If you think that this is a mute point read Psalms 138:2 and you will see how important God's word is. He puts it above all his names. If you don't have any confidence that you have his word you have started on shaky ground, for faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the wrod of God.
Paul wrote to the church at Corinth(a city), the churches of Galatia (a region), the saints at Ephesus (a city), the saits at Philippi (a city), the faithful brethren in Christ at Colosse ( a city). The biblical deffinition of church is not a corporation that can litigate or be litigated in the courts of this world. The church according to the word of God is the bride of Christ made of lively stones not social security numbers or masonry for that matter. The only way to be a member of the church at a city (and I assure you that their is only one at any given city) is to be born again. There may be born agin people who are corporate members of the Antioch Community Church corporation but the ACC corporation is not the church of Jesus Christ, and it is subject to the governments of this world. The church of the Lord Jesus Christ is only subject to Jesus Christ and it's members will obey all laws of this present evil world that do not go against God's law. The ACC corporation will be disolved by the judges of this world if It goes against any of it's laws. The judges of this world have no recourse against the saints of God except persecution, and inorder to disolve the church of the Lord Jesus Christ is to destroy its earthen vessels.
ReplyDeleteI just found this blog after reading how the Waco Antioch church is raising $11 million to expand. What in the world is up with that? Can't feed the homeless or help people with that money? I know a lot of friends in these churches and the problem I have with their faith is that they defend theology over the bible and get extremely defensive if you present anything other than what they're taught.
ReplyDeleteIt's almost like this place is all about "love" and talk, but not about truths. Like nothing matters as long as you say Jesus 15x a day and say you love everyone. Mission trips always resembled a religious vacation rather than doing good. And if you're not saving someone, you're a bad person. I've been asked by a member before how many I've saved. Sorry, I don't keep tabs and my job isn't to save anyone. Why even have a Messiah if I can save them?
Wow....I am a current member of Antioch. Been going there 12 1/2 yrs..very rarely miss a sunday. It has changed my life in huge ways. All teh sermons are based on the bible scripture. No one has ever treated me bad or tried to control me. I have had AMAZING experiences at ACC & I know God put me there. I went to other churches in my life but never really go much out of them. But ACC..God actually met with me & showed me He is there. I have no doubt. Cant believe all these ppl on here, I have NEVER experienced anything negative there in 12 1/2 yrs. GOD BLESS ACC!! AND JIMMY!
ReplyDeleteThat's great! I'm glad you haven't had any hurtful experiences. As long as a person submits to the authoritiy of the leaders and buys into their ideals and vision they will have nothing but a positive experience. If you faithfully attend Antioch and are involved in all they have to offer without complaint or question there will be no needs to worry about having a hurtful experience...it seems you must fit this description which can explain why you have been blessed with an amazing experience
DeleteMy experiences and observations have been consistent with those of Anon of 9-25-14 / 4:07PM.
DeleteAnon of 3-10-14 / 2:14PM, I am glad you have had a good experience. I hope that that remains the case for you. I wish that that had been the case for me, too, because I really liked Antioch.
I have been involved in Antioch for over ten years. Antioch is NOT a cult. Like any church or organization is has its downfalls. These issues I believe come from the structure of the church as a mega cell church. The reason this structure is causing so many issues with people feeling hurt or controlled is that there are literally hundreds of people in leadership roles in order to facilitate all of the Lifegroups and ministries they offer. Though this in itself isn't a problem, there are a countless number of people in these leadership positions who are representing Antioch that have no place being a leader. They likely achieved these positions because they were type -A personalities who are characterized by "passion" and "zeal" for the movement and "God". In reality many of these "leaders" do not have the character or wisdom to have any type of authority over people. Thus people are being caught up it this unfortunate dilemma. Like I said, over the past ten years, because I have been so extensively involved in friendships with leaders and in leadership myself, I can confidently say I have a pretty clear perspective of the dynamics of this church. Many of the problems people have with this church are real and are unfortunately a result of unqualified people in leadership who ise their positions of authority to control people. If you have not experienced any of these negatives it is because you either are the exception, you haven't been there long enough, you aren't extremely involved, or you are one of the people causing the hurt. I continue attending this church although I have seen some troubling issues because I have been involved so long that I don't want to lose the friendships I have built. Although I should still be able to my friends, I have seen that this is impossible. I have had friends kicked out of this church or simply leave because they were hurt and none of them were able to keep their "friendships". I not referring to only one or two situations instead there have been at least 40 examples of this over my years of being here. Honestly, I think that any mega church that is based on Lifegroup or cell groups run the risk of having unsuitable leaders negatively representing a well intended church or pastor.
ReplyDeleteWhat Anon 3-29-14 / 8:46 AM wrote was essentially what I observed at Antioch in my day.
DeleteHit the nail on the head, for sure. Especially problematic is the rapid recruitment and promotion of people into leadership over their peers. As a Baylor student I was on the worship team and played college services, world mandate boiler room, and some Sunday services, and women's conferences as well. Heavily involved. But I was not life group leadership or section leadership. Therefore I was "under the authority" of my classmates and roommates. One time I dared ask where the line between friend and leader, roommate and leader, classmate and leader etc began and ended with the concept of spiritual authority - I asked this in my kitchen, to a roommate who was also a life group leader.
DeleteMy answer came in the form of being contacted a few days later by my best friend - who was also a section leader - to hang out.
Except it wasn't a hang out - I was being rebuked for the "divisive" comments and questions I had made to my roommate(slash-life group-leader) in the kitchen of my house. I was told that section leadership had met concerning me, and was informed that I was not to have such conversations with people anymore.
I guess that kind of answered my questions. I was kicked off the worship team a few months after that, too, for "withdrawing from commjnity," which had happened as a result of me being told not to discuss spiritual questions with people, so that was fun...
This church is a cult in every sense of the word. Literally, it meets almost every requirement. I can't ignore the things I have seen and heard from ACC, and the utter hatred its members show towards non-ACC people. It is all for profit, for self-glory, for control and brainwashing. It is dangerous both mentally, AND physically. I remember seeing girls passing out in class because they were starving themselves for their idiotic church. So sad. I wish I could help my few friends that attend ACC to escape. Their lives are being ruined and they are oblivious.
ReplyDeleteEvil, evil, evil on earth. Antioch is it.
Because it is not affiliated with a denomination there is a higher risk of cult like tendencies but Antioch is not a cult. I have been a member for many many years and have experienced and witnessed many hurtful dynamics related to "discipleship" and Lifegroups. These two things are what are mainly responsible for the feelings people have concerning being controlled or rebuked or any other unhealthy dynamics in the church. Avoid these dynamics and you can basically negate any chance of experiencing negative hurtful or unhealthy control tactics used by uneducated and ill equipped leaders. It's not all bad, but there is valid reasons to be concerned or at least to continue to think for yourself instead of "go with the flow"
DeleteRegarding the cult / cult-like tendency claims, I can think of two primary perspectives:
Delete1. That of Christian apologists, regarding groups claiming to be Christian that deviate from one or more core teachings of Christianity; and
2. That of psychologists (and sociologists), regarding the deceptive and / or harmful effects of a group on members.
I would recommend researching both and seeing what you can learn. Doing so has helped me in my journey.
To those who have attended Antioch and seen things they don't like: There's a really cool quote that says "Be the change that you wish to see in the world." Please, for the sake of the church, address issues with the leaders at ACC, lovingly, so that improvements can be made if there are issues that need to be addressed at the church. Don't turn your back on the church. We need people like you to tell us how we can live as the body of Christ and love better.
ReplyDeleteIf person doesn't like Antioch, find another church. Chances are you probably won't like thr next church either because you will see what you look for. If you are looking for things wrong with the church you will find them. Learn to not take a few negative personal experiences so seriously that it ruins your relationships with others. By bashing a church you are not changing anything for the better. If you don't like Antioch than simply don't go. It's not all about you it's about Jesus. The problem is that too many people make church all about them and then get hurt or offended when they find out its not. Don't blame the church for failing in something they were never ment to do.
DeleteAnon of 9-25-14 / 4:15PM:
DeleteWell, before Antioch, every other church I had been involved in welcomed people despite socio-political and theological differences on issues not essential to the faith. I didn't initially know that conformity even in many minor issues would be essentially required at Antioch in order to remain in good fellowship. I have never had this problem to the same extent in any other church, whether before or since Antioch.
I don't mean to bash Antioch; but I am here to caution others. You're right: it's not about me. But I do have a heart for standing up for and protecting fellow believers in the body of Christ.
Anon of 5-10-14 / 12:39AM:
I attempted multiple times to address my concerns with leaders at Antioch at various levels and never felt heard out. I am among those who have resorted to public comment not because I want to, but because no one ever appeared to be listening at any level of leadership. I am not turning my back on the church. I am sharing my insights here.
There's a new Antioch Church here in Dallas. I'm wondering if its associated with Waco.
ReplyDeleteI read most of the comments. I'm thankful for those whose found their place in Antioch, but I relate more to the ones who are dissatisfied.
I've belonged to charismatic-penacostal,speaking in tongues churches. My experience has been more damaging. I have mental illness, I'm also black.
Mental illness in minority communities are a big stigma. You might as well tell a person you're a serial killer.
Most minorities flock to the charismatic faith because some dont understand that walking with Jesus is a process. We can never be perfect, if we were, why did Jesus a PERFECT man without sin shed his blood?
As humans we have flaws. But so many people are ashamed of their diagnosis that they flock to these churches who promise a microwave solution to a long term problem. Most of these people stop taking their medication cuz a self sanctified prophetic "healer"has told them they've been healed. Now here's the punchline, you can never mention your mental illness again because you've been healed. There's no Scripture, no Bible study, no Biblical truth. Just a lot of people speaking jibberish and there's no one present to translate.
I was encouraged to stuff my feelings because "God doesn't want me to talk about it ". As a result, I got worse and the end result was lost of jobs and a relapse on drugs after 13 years clean.
Charismatic churches rarely open their Bibles, very rarely have Bible study and the church I belonged to had people with no Biblical training behind the pulpit because they heard "a word from God" no Scripture, just a message.
These churches are detrimental for people who have mental illness or drug problems. Alcohol is a drug too. You can't expect to walk away healed because somebody told you that there was a "demon" inside you and now surrounded by emotional frenzy, you are HEALED.!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes God is still in the healing business but prophetic miracles ceased after the last prophet died, John. Read Acts. For a real understanding of tounges read Acts chapter 2.
I do Bible study alone because I need a break. I was having some problems that were emotionally challenging
I belonged to an evangelical church. Word of advice, if no one has had the experiences that you've had with mental illness dont be surprise when they dump you. First I was a curious enigma and treated like family. When I spoke up for myself, I'm told I was never their friend. And being black makes it worse because you're stereotyped as angry and dangerous. I love God and my Saviour Jesus but I'm not that crazy about they're fan club.
I'm starting an anonymous group of those who've experience religious abuse. Its not God. It's imperfect people who deem themselves perfect. Be blessed
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ReplyDeleteI stumbled upon this blog and it reminded me of one of my first few weeks at Baylor when I attended ACC. I tested out several churches in the area. I remember attending ACC one Sunday and thinking this authentic faith. But when I went back to baylor some friends told me that ACC was a cult. As a freshman, I thought well I better avoid that so I started attending another church. Some of my family members were weary too... Since I grew up Baptist and non denominational churches weren't popular with some of my more conservative family members. There are many great churches in Waco and I had the privilege of being a part of many of them. My senior year at Baylor I fell on some very hard times and the community that support me the most were my friends from Antioch. I joined a small group and started attending there. I continued attending for several years. I participated in local and international missions trips and loved it!! Is the church perfect....of course not! No church is. Sometimes my community and I didn't always agree. I messed up sometimes and we apologized to each other and moved on. But I will always remember those years at ACC as times that drew me into a closer walk with Jesus. Are some aspects more charismatic then other churches. Sure. I am sorry for those of you who felt like people at Antioch caused you pain. I just want to say I'm sorry that happened to you. It's a church full of imperfect people but a perfect God. My advice to you is to find a church whether Antioch or somewhere else that follows the word of God. Antioch is a great church.... I have friendships from there that will last a lifetime. I met my husband there. We now live in another city and attend a different church. The body of Christ is larger than one church. Our faith is about following our Savior Jesus, reading his word, following him and loving people. To the person who started this blog.... I often try to establish motivation behind actions. I could be completely off base and if so I apologize. But I wonder if this blog started out of fear, anger, rejection or maybe all three. If that's not true then forgive my presumption. If it is true, I just want me to say you are loved and accepted. By God and by the church. You have a vital role to play in building up the kingdom of God.
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ReplyDeleteFormer Lifegroup leader/church member....all that jazz...of a small Antioch church plant. When I first went to Antioch, I felt an enormity of love and acceptance. FYI: I've never been to the Mother-Church (except for World Mandate) so I'm only speaking about the church plant I went to. It wasn't until my third year that I was busy work and could not longer lead, that I started having troubles. My first issue with this specific plant was that the pastor had never been formally educated in the Bible. He received his "education" from Jimmy Seibert. Similar to a cult, this means that the stream of knowledge is coming from one source (Jimmy) who "certifies" all the people he sends out--regardless of the fact of if they have been to seminary or not. The great thing about seminary is that you can go for a specific denomination, but you are still getting your information and knowledge from various people and various churches. Antioch trains people off what they consider Biblical knowledge coming from their leader.
ReplyDeleteSecond problem, the members of this church use "God is telling me" and false visions/prophecy to make excuses for what they would really like to do/or not to do themselves. Also, they lack common sense. Two members of this church have struggled with severe eating disorders (previously having been hospitalized and fed through a tube). The pastor of this church, rather than encouraging them to get help (when they are VISIBLY SICK and their heart rate is around 50 bpm on ADDERALL) instead says, "oh God will heal you!" and prays for a miracles when God established medical institutions and those who can help others.
Third problem, Antioch encourages the submission of women in a degrading manner. Their culture has created a slew of young marriages and women who are "called" (as they like to say) to be homemakers and mothers. They encourage couples who have been dating for barely 6 months to marry. They bash on any physical contact. And they aren't fond of couples that aren't within the community together.
The list goes on...but those are some things I've noticed in my specific church plant here.
Don't get me wrong--Antioch comes across as AMAZING and so RADICAL and fun and contemporary.....but once you step away for a bit, you realize the lies, the lack of competent leadership, and that you've been relying on that "community" for your relationship with God-- like someone else before me said above).
It just seems like the church has a lot of kinks to fix.
The shunning process is brutal, I have 3 friends outta 6 years even being baptized in the Antioch Seattle plant, I now attend a more community based church not a 'planting' church. One of the main things I disagree with the church is the classes that cost college students and working class people $3k to learn the bible which is a pyramid to me as a legit businessman. I also agree with 1/25 states about the 6 month dating internal rule, if you disagree with it then you are spread rumors about. This church movement (red flag) has been accused of some nasty things in the newspapers and every city they plant. I've asked the leadership to show me their books due to the financial ask for classes (IE Elevate/MDS etc) and was denied or danced around the entire time. I pray they either get exposed publicly or their own intervention from God.
DeleteAgree 100%, seen this happen many time including being victim to it.
DeleteAnons of Oct. 30, 2015: You mean to tell me that Mosaic or her schools wouldn't show her books?
DeleteAnon of 11:52 PM: Yeah, Antioch Movement churches do tend to charge for courses, and probably typically around the amount you mention, for disicpleship / spiritual formation-type classes. This may not be across the board, though. I don't know. But I have seen it, as I've researched Antioch Movement churches.
I have mixed feelings about the costs, because those training schools tend to be Antioch Movement's equivalent of seminaries. (I haven't observed Antioch Movement churches to recognize degrees from accredited seminaries. A colleague of mine compared Antioch Movement training schools to Sovereign Grace Churches' Pastor's College.)
For the rest of you: Have any of you ever had trouble getting to see the financial records of an Antioch Movement church? How about an Antioch training school? Is it necessary for us to see that stuff? Just food for thought. Thanks for keeping the convo going! = )
To "I used to love Antioch and then I left," in the countless eating-disorder testimonies I've heard from ACC's pulpit over the years, I've ALWAYS heard of a combination of medical attention, emotional/mental counseling, AND supernatural deliverance. I've found ACC to always seek balance, to be "both/and," not "either/or." During the Heather & Dayna situation and Tsunami fiasco, ACC was blamed for a sole focus on evangelism, while the truth (which the single-minded & media ignored), is that ACC was providing aid AND unashamedly loving people while presenting the Gospel. We so often focus on what were against, just like this blog does.
Deletei have noticed so much of what you said as well. initially i thought it was a great church but then began comparing the teaching to other teaching and things did not add up biblically. I have a good friend who goes to antioch. can i ask what plant it is?
ReplyDeleteI attended ACC for 5 years before moving to another town.I met God in ways I had never before and I learnt how to seek God.Before I got saved I had stayed away from God because of what someone close to me who is a church leader did to me.I couldn't go to a God that I knew that person served. Not that ACC is perfect, it is purely imperfect. If you are looking for a perfect church this is not it,just stay at home. People do so many wrong things to others in the name of Jesus that end up hurting them. I will not disregard that I've been there and it hurts and only Jesus can heal.Yes ACC has flawed leaders but so is any other church in the work.The important thing is we are the church. When I go to the world I do not represent my church I represent Jesus.I have had people tell me something that doesn't agree with my spirit and I go home and seek God and he gives me answers. The church doesn't give us answers it only points us to the one who does.I am so sorry you were hurt by the leaders one cannot understand how it feels until they are in the same position.There are godly people at ACC who are representing God and leading people to God.It's not the whole flock that is bad.
ReplyDeleteJeremiah 29:11 whether its about a church or any challenges we may face on this earth , know what God says about our Anger. Lots of scripture on it. I will tell you and im not perfect either but this is not the way to handle this issue you are having. God's way and will be done in our lives , not ours. Our Lord loves us all including you , im sure. God bless you and His grace and mercy take you to new heights. Merry Christmas brothers & sisters in Christ. Jesus is Lord ~.
ReplyDeletethe scripture is Proverbs 29:11 , im not sure why i posted Jeremian 29:11 .. but I trust there must be a reason as well for what seems a mistake. Ok .. and Happy New Year 2017 . Remember He always makes all things New! Revelations 21:5
DeleteI like how engaged and relationship-focused the church goers are but the actual spirituality is "wave your hands in the air" pep talk. The Spirit/light is there in lifegroups between individuals and during worship as I felt it intensly (but you can get that around a fire in the woods and its not intellectual). Lifegroups are legit but the actual leadership is profit motivated and I suspect are charlatans. The pastors seem to be phoning it in. The mission trips are often just spring break vacations for pastors/leaders on the churchgoers' dime.
ReplyDeleteI've seen them collect money from dirt poor folk for MDS instead of waiving the tuition (lame) while massively overspending on real estate or church hardware.
As with most flashy churches, the audience/regular members are sincere but the leaders are making $$ and siphoning it for themselves. I suspect some are actually atheists using church as their cash cow.
I can work through this as I believe you can worship on your own. This church is in my sphere for social reasons. The sermons are a joke.
I spent some time at Antioch in Waco way back in 1996. I was divorced, depressed, and aimless. I had been told about ATS by my landlord in Nashville. Who happened to be Dana Curry's mom. (dayna was one of the two girls who were held hostage in Afghanistan after 9-11) Nevertheless, I hung out in Waco for a few weeks. Attended church. Went to home fellowship groups. Participated in midweek outreach events, working with urban kids. I was desperately looking to fit in somewhere, and to be accepted. I wanted to do the ATS thing. But I noticed something that didnt seem right.
ReplyDeleteNone of the ATS 'students' seemed to work real jobs. They all raised support. So their full time jobs were making calls to beg people for financial support. Even back then, before I knew the bible like I do now, I felt something wrong with the notion of raising support to cover living expenses, while still enjoying the American standard of living.
Im all about raising support when one has made the sacrifice of moving overseas for the Gospel, and gave up the many creature comforts of America, like air conditioning, and all u can eat buffets. But these people were raising support just to live a college student lifestyle. Hanging out. Dating. Church events. Eating out. etc...(which reminded me of the YWAM base in nashville as well!) (YWAM is another organization I have doubts about, regarding support raising, when very little actual evangelism is actually happening.)
Beyond the financial aspect, in my personal meetings with leaders at ATS, I got the feeling they werent that interested in me anyway. I wasnt as young and attractive as most of their college students, so I didnt fit the bill.
Linda May 2016.. yes well Antioch has two Mosaic branches in Seattle and just purchased a building for $2 mill, yet I have a close friend who attends there who has also asked for bank statements, books etc and was denied even after signing a member form. I am actually thinking of suing them for the books for public record.
ReplyDelete"Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is EXCELLENT or PRAISEWORTHY—think about such things." Phillipians 4:8 "...whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God." I Corinthians 10:31...Churches are made up of imperfect people; thus, they will always be imperfect. If, at any time, one no longer feels that s/he can support a church and its ministries, then by all means, one has the right to leave and seek out a new fellowship. On the other hand, continued dissent (how many years has this blog been blogging on with its complaints?????) can do nothing else but create even more dissent; most certainly, it is not bringing glory to God. True forgiveness -- a commandment, by the way ("But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Matthew 6:15) -- is what is needed in such situations; once forgiveness can be accomplished, there will be no more need for such blogs.
ReplyDeleteWell, Kim, perhaps this blog serves as a warning to those who might be struggling to choose a church. Our dissenting has very little to do with complaining. Sometimes it is a cry for acknowledgement after being disenfranchised, but more often people post to give others perspective regarding a very controlling ministry that has had a negative effect on their lives. Perhaps your experience is positive, and that's great as well. But, I think people deserve to know how others have experienced this church. For me, it's been good and bad. I'm so thankful to have come out of it because I've grown immensely in every way imaginable. I don't regret my involvement there because I wouldn't be who I am today without having endured it. Blogs like this have a place, too. Just iron sharpening iron. You are stronger and better able to emphasize with others for having read the posts. All things serve a purpose.
ReplyDeleteJust left Antioch and everything y'all say is true! But I am not letting them get away with the people that they have hurt! Just want permission to share some of y'all stories. Please email me if you want to speak further. mgracia254@gmail.com it'a GRACIA not GARCIA lol thank yall. I would apologize for what y'all went through but we need apologies from the people that hurt us! Period! Hoping you all have moved on from these vulchers!
ReplyDeleteThe Antioch international movement of churches is a controversial network of evangelical churches[1] headquartered in Waco, Texas founded in 1987 by the couple Jimmy and Laura Seibert. It is a burgeoning megachurch network of over 40 churches in the United States and more than 80 locations worldwide.[2][3] The movement strongly focuses on cult evangelism and aggressive church planting domestically in the United States but especially internationally.[4]
ReplyDeleteAs a contemporary church movement, college students and young adults make up Antioch's main target demographic. Christian contemporary music and "Antioch Music's" adherence to flashy concert-like performances play a role in appealing to youth. Churches are often strategically planted in close proximity to schools and universities. A standard forerunner example of this is Antioch Community Church's long partnered history with Baylor University and alumni.[5][6] Smaller separate "life groups" is a system Antioch churches use to develop relationships and multiply in numbers.[7] Antioch claims to be non-denominational in order to make itself more appealing to the students they are attempting to indoctrinate.[8] However, the churches' original headquarters in Waco Texas remain core to the movement's broader conservative theological values and beliefs in Pentecostal Charismatic Christianity.
Seibert frequently focuses on leading members into believing the main purpose and passion God has for them is to change the world through planting Antioch churches.[9] Further indoctrination takes place at every Antioch church and its affiliates in "Antioch Discipleship Schools." In such programs, attendees pay up to over one thousand five hundred dollars to attend day or night classes over the course of five to nine months, with the promise of radical transformation.[10] The program culminates in an overseas outreach trip, which students are expected to fund raise several thousands of dollars more.[11] Internal conferences featuring guest speakers are also held yearly focusing on revivalism, reformation, and "Antioch music" concerts to promote that they are mandated by God into world missions.[12] More broadly, every church of the Antioch movement staffs a hierarchy of multiple pastors who preach to their members that they are called to encounter God the Antioch way, make Antioch disciples, go on Antioch missions, and plant Antioch churches.[13]
The church received significant international press coverage after two of its overseas missionaries, Dayna Curry and Heather Mercer, were imprisoned by the Taliban in Afghanistan for illegal missionary work around the same time as the 9/11 attacks on the United States.[1] Antioch's relationship with reality TV stars Chip and Joanna Gaines also thrusted the church into a controversial spotlight due to Antioch's anti-homosexual beliefs and partnership with conversion therapy ministries.[14][15] Many believe it is a cult due to multiple reports of extremism, toxicity, exploitation, manipulation, and religious abuse.[16][17]
Jimmy Seibert does not have any seminary training nor does he have a seminary degree. Instead, he has a Bachelor of Business Administration degree (BBA) which he obtained from Baylor University in 1986.[19]
ReplyDeleteSeibert’s introduction to Christianity began while attending Baylor University in 1985. “I didn’t grow up in the church so I wasn’t mad at the church.” Seibert said at a conference. “I had baggage but not church baggage.” His first interactions started with Campus Crusade for Christ. Despite being initially skeptical he eventually grew to become a college pastor at a Baptist Church. In addition to the evangelism and discipleship training he learned from Campus Crusade, Highland Baptist, Seibert was also discipled by a Pentecostalist named “Robert Ewing.” Robert Ewing inspired Seibert’s faith with miraculous stories such as claiming to resurrect an assistant back from the dead whom had been declared deceased for 3 days. “So listening to Robert’s stories and knowing this man was raised from the dead, my faith level was high." Seibert remarked.[20]
Being also inspired by Isaiah 54:2-3, Seibert headed to the former Soviet Union and attempted to plant churches. While there, he met a friend affiliated with YWAM who told him they had been attracting thousands of young people by putting on Christian rock concerts.
Seibert is the founder and senior pastor of Antioch Community Church in Waco, TX, and the president of Antioch Ministries International. Seibert graduated from Baylor University and a former member of the fraternity Kappa Omega Tau. The Seibert family currently live in Waco, Texas.
Seibert's story of founding the movement is found in his first book, "The Church Can Change the World," which has been revamped in the book "Passion and Purpose."[21] Seibert also co-authored "The Three Loves" with Larry Kreider. Jimmy and his wife Laura also co-authored "Parenting Without Regret," a book that advocates slapping or spanking children. [22]
Jimmy Seibert has been listed endorsing a pro-life movement against the Texas Department of State Health Services, Planned Parenthood of Greater Texas. These full page ads are paid for by Carenet Pregnancy Center.[23][24]
Jimmy Seibert's Endorsement for Donald Trump
During the 2016 United States presidential election, Jimmy Seibert preached at length against Hillary Clinton and expressed support for Donald Trump. Seibert urged Christians to vote for the candidate who best aligned with four key conservative positions: anti-abortion, “traditional marriage,” religious freedom, and the “value of the individual.” Seibert also elicited fears over transgendered children’s ability to choose which restroom they can enter at school. Seibert warned Christians were in real danger of getting “pushed out” for their traditional views if the wrong candidate got elected. After the election, Seibert praised God, calling upon on his congregation to reconcile and pray for President Trump.[25]
Stance on homosexuality and gay marriage
ReplyDeleteThe churches within the Antioch Movement recognize marriage as only between the uniting of one man and one woman in covenant commitment for a lifetime.[29] Founder Jimmy Seibert has emphasized "...Homosexuality is a sin" and that it is a lie that homosexuality is not a sin.[30] A believer in "gay conversion therapy", he attributes most homosexuality a result of some type of physical, sexual, mental abuse and has stated "for over 30 years — I have seen hundreds of people personally change their direction of same-sex attraction from a homosexual lifestyle to a heterosexual lifestyle."[31][32]
As a result of this stance, HGTV celebrities Chip and Joanna Gaines from the show Fixer Upper, who attend the church, released a statement on it.[14][33] It has also been reported a psychologist in Waco meets regularly with a group of self-described “Antioch survivors," noting former members' stories of crises of faith after being made to feel unwelcome by the Antioch Community Church in Waco, either for life decisions (declining to go on a mission) or for their identity (coming out as gay).[33]
Stance on abortion and notion of pro-choice
Antioch Waco's position paper states abortion, including abortifacient contraceptives, are wrong under any circumstances. Although Antioch describes a pregnancy resulting from incest, rape, specifically rape by her husband, as devastating, they do not believe these substantiate grounds for an abortion. Neither do they believe a woman should have the right to choose an abortion, describing the position of "choice" as inconsistent with the logic and the laws they hold dear.[34]
Corporal punishment of children
In their book, Parenting without Regret, Jimmy Seibert and Laura Seibert advocate spanking children for discipline in a way that one reviewer described as "ritualistic and instructive."[22]
Supporting gay conversion therapy
ReplyDeleteDebates over an LGBTQ student group at Baylor University were shaped by the Antioch International Movement of Churches' decades long embracing the controversial practice of gay conversion therapy.[35][36] Jimmy Seibert, the lead pastor of the Antioch International Movement of Churches, has consistently upheld his position against homosexuality and staunchly opposes gay rights.[37] The Antioch Movement promotes that homosexuals can be converted into heterosexuals. They have a years long partnership with Living Hope Ministries, an organization that carries conversion therapy out. The Antioch Community Churches in Texas, Antioch Norman Oklahoma, All People's Church in San Diego, and all Antioch affiliates are directly partnered with Living Hope Ministries. [38][39]
Spiritual abuse and cult allegations
There have been many reviews and personal testimonials on blogs, articles, Google Maps, Medium, youtube, and reddit that allege Antioch International Ministries and Antioch Waco of widespread harmful spiritual abuse and being a cult.[40] Church checker Sarah Leann Young identified multiple red flags indicating cult abuse connections after investigating Antioch Salt Lake City.[41] Ex-member Keith Reich says the church holds some very strong beliefs, and it meets the criteria for a cult.[42] Experiences of former Antiochers from Antioch Orlando go on to describe experiencing religious trauma syndrome.[43] One former member outlines brainwashing techniques, manipulation, strict rules, and people with their own "Antioch lingo" code speak. She describes being part of a certain target audience that Antioch will "prey" upon: young, seeking, vulnerable, on the "fringes." Another former member has described her experience as "toxic" and "abusive."[44] One journalist even staked her career on the dangers of Antioch.[45] It also reports a psychologist in town meets regularly with a group of self-described “Antioch survivors," noting former members' stories of crises of faith after being made to feel unwelcome by the church, either for life decisions (declining to go on a mission) or for their identity (coming out as gay).[46] The Antioch international movement of churches is listed on cultdatabase.com.[47]
Aggressive and illegal evangelism
Antioch International systemically indoctrinates, trains, and sends covert missionaries in secret to countries and places that are dangerous and hostile to Christianity. Many willing missionaries are college students and young adults who are told God's primary calling for them is to change the world through Antioch's evangelism ministries.[48] Many Antioch missionaries have been arrested and detained for evangelizing in prohibitive areas such as Egypt. Notable in the movement's history is the arrest and imprisonment of Heather Mercer and Dayna Curry by the Taliban on August 3, 2001 due to conducting evangelism and missionary work which was illegal in Afghanistan.[49] But most such incidents do not get publicized.[50]
As one former member attested to, potential assignments where one could get killed are considered, such as North Korea. To conceal its activities, Antioch uses code names for different countries, such as "CA2" and "EA1". Even within its own organization Antioch does not tell members which countries they are sending missionaries to.[51]
Unethical and aggressive proselytization is a known trait of the Antioch movement missionaries as documented in the aftermath of the Sri Lankan tsunami of 2004.[52] Under the guise of humanitarian service, a group from the Antioch movement sent missionaries to Sri Lanka with the intent to proselytize. Local ministers and other humanitarian aid groups later criticized the Antioch missionaries' aggressiveness and ulterior motives.[53][54]
Unethical and deceptive church planting
ReplyDeleteAntioch Church planting remains the primary goal of the Antioch Movement.[55] Antioch boasts of over 80 church plants worldwide but does not list all their international locations.[56] In comparison to different Antioch sites, areas in Middle East, China, Africa, Thailand, Indonesia, Europe, Japan, India appear on some church branch promotional materials but not on the main locations site.[57][58] This locations discrepancy suggest an effort to hide activity from governments who outlaw evangelism. The 10 most dangerous countries where evangelism is illegal include: Afghanistan, North Korea, Somalia, Libya, Yemen, Eritrea, Nigeria, Pakistan, Iran, India.[59]
After purchasing a large vacant lot in 2020, the Antioch movement submitted plans to forcefully plant a megachurch in Del Cerro, San Diego.[60] The church proposed a development of a 54,476 square foot church and a more than 71,000 sq. ft. parking structure. Many residents and indigenous people have unanimously opposed the mega project for several years.[61][62][63]
Endorsement for Donald Trump 2016
A day before the presidential election, Jimmy Seibert urged his congregation to vote on the basis of four conservative values: anti-abortion, “traditional marriage,” religious freedom, and “value of the individual.” Should Hillary win, Seibert cautioned Christians would be in danger of getting “pushed out” of public life. In response, Antioch Community Church member Robert Callahan expressed fear and frustration over what he interpreted as his “fringe” Evangelical peers’ support for Trump. As a black man in a white majority church, Callahan also voiced concern over what he saw as growing incitements of hate speech and discrimination.
It was a political sermon that former Antioch member Grecia Cantu also found very disturbing. She feared her deferred immigrant status, granted by the Obama administration, would be revoked should Trump gain office. Cantu described feeling personally attacked and betrayed by Seibert’s sermon. Cantu was so disturbed, she walked in and out of Seibert’s sermon three times. Feeling unsafe, Cantu has since left Antioch Community Church, and has not returned.[64]
Gentrification
With "church planting" and expansionism as part of the core values of Antioch Waco, along with their close association with celebrity home renovation and redecoration entrepreneurs Chip and Joanna Gains, Antioch has been criticized for aggressively gentrifying their surrounding neighborhoods.[65][66] The Waco neighborhood, in particular, has been in focus. Antioch members discussed coming into the community to fix it, calling the process "restoration." Journalist Anne Helen Petersen argues that Waco's diversity is not reflected in Antioch Community Church's white majority makeup. Antioch often capitalizes on church networking as a means for creating internal upward mobility.[46] Megan Peck, who works for Waco Tours, agreed with Peterson. “Often I feel like there is a white savior mentality here in Waco. This idea that a neighborhood is struggling until the white comes with big business and makes the place oh so much better,” Peck said.[67] On one expansionist project, Antioch intends to spend $11 million dollars on infrastructure of their headquarters alone.[68]
Systemic racism at Antioch Community Church
ReplyDeleteFormer Antiochers Gary and Brittany Wardlaw of the youtube channel "WardlawstoWaco" allege to having experienced pervasive oppression, silencing, and internally systemic racism by the leadership at Antioch Community Church.[69][70][71][72] Gary Wardlaw (LMFT, LPC) and Brittany Wardlaw (JD) are trained therapists of African American descent.[73] Previously, Brittany Wardlaw held a position as creator and director of Baylor University’s office of Diversity and Inclusion.[74] Gary contends Jimmy Seibert and his “leadership” at Antioch Waco consciously promote and uphold a culture of white supremacy. After voicing their concerns, Gary and Brittany were shunned by many and received criticism from Antioch of being "bitter" and having "gone rogue." Gary describes their "racial trauma" experience as psychologically damaging.[75] A majority of Antioch Community Church and senior leadership are predominantly White.[76][77]
Megan Peck, a former employee of Waco Tours, also alleges Antioch Waco's college pastor Luke Whyte, co-owner of Waco Tours, is a racist. Peck points out Waco Tour's practices of racism in mechanisms of oppression such as historical erasure, racial distortion, stereotyping, tokenism, and "white saviorism." As a biracial Korean, Megan says she often experienced racial microaggressions from both customers and staff in the form of insensitive jokes against Asians and racial comparisons to Joanna Gaines. Megan also describes at the end of every tour, the narrative culminates into promoting Antioch Waco’s ministries, praising the ways it claims to have saved countless lives. Co-owner Whyte tops off every tour with his testimony on how Jesus saved his life and that it lead to owning a successful company. After expressing her concerns of an unsafe environment to managers, co-owners Whyte and Ridley, Megan was rebuffed and dismissed.[78][79][80]
Non-professional treatment for mental illness
Antioch Waco encourages its members who are suffering from mental illnesses to join non-medical non-professional Grace Alliance "groups" to receive and provide general wellness therapy as an alternative to "overloaded" local mental health care professionals. Such individuals struggling with mental health issues mentioned range from minor lack of sleep to thoughts of suicide, long term sufferers of depression. The program anticipates catering to individuals who haven’t been educated about professional services or cannot afford them. While professional mental healthcare is still encouraged, their stated intent is for a community of lay people that will "fill in the gaps" for the mental health care system and professionals.[81] These groups follow a workbook and curriculum which subjects pay for. Grace Alliance group's large disclaimer reads: "Grace Alliance materials are not professional mental health or medical resources and should not be used to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any mental or physical disorder or replace treatment services of mental health or medical professionals. The use of Grace Alliance resources in personal or small group context is the sole discretion of the user."[82]
Forced exorcism
ReplyDeleteFormer member Becky Oberg was kicked out of the Antioch Community church in the late ’90s after she was diagnosed with schizophrenia. “They thought I was possessed by a demon,” says Becky, adding that church leaders told her it was her fault and tried to treat her with an exorcism. “They pinned me to my floor and yelled for Satan to leave. They want you to confess your sin and be healed or cast out the demons.” However, in an interview, Seibert denied this and goes on to say they don’t use the term “exorcism” but they do recognize “demonic oppression.” Becky maintains she was a victim and survivor of religious and spiritual abuse.[83][84][85][86]
Illegal missionaries in Afghanistan
On August 3, 2001 due to conducting evangelism and missionary work which was illegal in Afghanistan, Antioch missionaries Heather Mercer and Dayna Curry were arrest and imprisoned of by the Taliban [87] Antioch Community Church responded to the crisis by creating a rotation of 24-hour prayer for Mercer and Curry's release.[88][89] The crisis attracted the attention of international secular and religious media.[90][91][92] The prayer vigil for Mercer and Curry lasted 104 days. At the news of the missionaries' release, Antioch responded with what was described by the LA Times as a "joyous fest" of prayer and worship.[93] Mercer and Curry co-authored a book about their experience in Afghanistan, titled "Prisoners of Hope." As of 2021, Curry and Mercer still do work in Afghanistan serving on behalf of the Antioch Church[94] Despite the dangers, Antioch Community Church continues to conduct evangelistic work and send missionaries to Afghanistan. In 2021, Dr. Mansoor Sawiz, a pediatrician who worked as an interpreter for Antioch Community Church has sent desperate messages to family in Texas and to the media for aid in leaving Afghanistan with his wife and five children. Ajmal Mayar, an engineer whose wife’s sister is married to Sawiz, said that the lives of Sawiz and his family have been upended and placed in danger since U.S. troops pulled out of Afghanistan and the extremist group has taken over.[95]
Proselytization in Sri Lanka
After the Sri Lankan tsunami of 2005, Antioch Community Church sent at least a dozen Americans under the pretense of humanitarian aid. Most American aid groups, including those affiliated with religious organizations, strictly avoid mixing aid with missionary work. Pat Murphy, 49, a leader of the team, claimed the group is nongovernmental organization, or NGO, and not a church group. But the church's own website said the Americans are one of four teams dispatched to Sri Lanka and Indonesia who have convinced dozens of people to "come to Christ." Rev. Sarangika Fernando, a local Methodist minister, accused the Americans of exploiting traumatized people. Antioch's aggressive proselytization have also angered and alarmed other humanitarian aid groups, who feared backlash.[96][97]
Mosaic-Neumos dispute and fallout
ReplyDeleteIn 2008, a church plant of Antioch Community Church called Mosaic Community Church was characterized as "forcefully" inserting itself into the Capital Hill neighborhood of Seattle, Washington. Initially, the nightclub Neumos had agreed to rent out their space to the church. While Pastor Jady Griffin stated that his church is "open to everyone," several members of the MCC revealed that gays would not be accepted at the church. After local nightclub owners and residents had discovered what they viewed as Mosaic's "homophobic" beliefs, the nightclub has since denied the church plant's lease and have severed all ties.[98][99]
Missionary student detained in India
While attempting departure in 2011, an Antioch Community Church missionary student from Baylor University was detained in Mumbai after airport authorities discovered a bullet in her backpack.[100] The student claimed she had no idea where the bullet came from. Later arrested, the missionary was released and returned to the US a month later.[101][102]
Pastor arrested for prostitution
In 2017 pastor Edward Ignacio Espinosa and Jimmy Seibert were arrested for patronizing an illicit massage parlor. Upon his confession, Pastor Espinosa was placed on administrative leave from Antioch Community Church and was later allowed to resign. Antioch Community Church’s own anti-human trafficking ministry, UnBound, assisted the women who were found at the massage parlor that Espinosa visited. Espinosa was on staff with Antioch’s Community Outreach Ministry for eight years.[103][104][105][106][107][108]
Antioch Salt Lake City pastors step down, connections to YWAM
In 2018 lead pastors, JR & Brittany Baker, disagreed with specific parts of the doctrine, values, and ethos of the Antioch Movement and of Antioch SLC. It became clear during their last handful of months that they were in process with their convictions. Namely, Antioch's beliefs on homosexuality as sin, overfocus on sin, being the "best and the top," rather than being humble and encountering Jesus.[109] Due to this, out of a heart to serve the church and to see it move forward with unity and clarity of vision, the Bakers made the decision to step down as Lead Pastors of Antioch SLC.[110] In 2021 lead pastor Codi Waison stepped down due to struggling with conflicting pressures of being a lead pastor, depression, emotional breakdowns, and deterioration of emotional health. Codi shares how he came to this decision in the January 24th Sunday service youtube video scattered with jump cuts.
Antioch SLC has encouraged members to attend the controversial "cult-like" YWAM (Youth With a Mission) School, which has hundreds of reports of abuse to its name, both on social media and in the courtroom. There are also multiple online resources detailing Antioch's troubling and abusive situations.[111]
Epicentre church pastor John Lo molested boys in 1990s
ReplyDeleteA man has reported to have been sexually molested by pastor John Lo as an underaged boy in the 1990's. After being quietly excommunicated, Pastor John Lo came to become the head pastor of Epicentre Church in Pasadena, CA an affiliate of Antioch Waco.
West LA pastor resigns
On June 19, 2019 the Antioch affiliate church planter and founding pastor, Lawrence Huey, announced his stepping down from lead pastor of Epicentre West LA; he went on to accept a lower administrative position at a different church network, Chris Rattay succeeding his position at Epicentre West LA.[70] After 2 years, Mr. Huey has quit his position at Renew Church LA and since revamped his past work experience to erase any trace of having been a pastor, instead describing his prior church positions as "Community Leader Coach" and "Executive Director."[71]
Save Del Cerro
Around 2020, a contentious battle erupted over Antioch affiliate "All Peoples Church" and their plan to plant themselves in the predominantly Jewish neighborhood of Del Cerro, San Diego. Amidst accusations of anti-semitism and homophobia, a number of Del Cerro residents opposed this "mega project" in a campaign called "Save Del Cerro."[114][115] All People’s Pastor Robert Herber, has empathetically spoken about a “revival” of the city, and specifically referenced the “Jews of Del Cerro”. In August of 2023 the Navajo Community Planners unanimously voted against the church's mega project.[116]
Antioch Orlando insurrection
Antioch Orlando was delisted from Antioch locations in August of 2021.[117][118] Its founder, John Curiale, originally from Antioch Community Church Wheaton, remains head pastor. It had been an official branch of the Antioch movement since its planting in 2012.[119] People who have since left state Antioch Orlando's separation was due to theological differences; turning from charismatic to reformed.[120] However even prior to the church's disaffiliation, a long history of exploitation and abuse was tolerated by leadership in the Antioch movement and was not the reason for separation.[121] Despite its listing removal and logo change, Antioch Orlando retains the same Antioch name, structure, non-denominational status, discipleship programing, and world missions focus.[122] Ex-members of Antioch Community Church Orlando continue to post survival stories of spiritual abuse and cult warnings on the site "I Left Antioch Orlando."[123]
In 1998, the Antioch Community Church in Waco sent out its first U.S. church planting team to Boston, Massachusetts. The next church was planted in 2001 in Dallas, TX. Since then, churches have been planted across the United States with a vision to see more reproducing churches established internationally. Many of these churches are now planting churches of their own, both in the United States and in other nations. As of 2022, the Antioch Movement’s public network list claims "over 40 churches in the United States" (see below). Internationally, their public listing claims "more than 80 additional locations worldwide" despite listing only 7. The remaining international churches are unlisted non-transparent black sites due to security concerns inherent with some international mission work. Dangerous closed areas where missionaries could get killed, such as North Korea, Afghanistan, have been considered. Antioch's secretive treatment of missions work extends to the point of using code names for different countries such as "CA2" and "EA1." Sometimes they do not even tell their members which countries they send their missionaries to.[16] Compared to different Antioch sites, areas in China, Africa (Morocco, Libya, Cameroon, Kenya, Tanzania, Namibia, Mozambique) India, Sri Lanka, Thailand, Indonesia, Middle East (Iraq, Lebanon, United Arab Emirates, Afghanistan), Europe (Portugal, Italy) Japan, etc.. appear on some church branch promotional materials but are not listed on the main locations site.[124][125]
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