Reader, thanks for the question.
I'm a baylor freshman and have been going to antioch since about this past september. I started out as just going to my lifegroup but now also attend the wednesday service frequently. I actually just got back from the training day for the awaken trip...that's why I'm commenting. I wanted to know what your experience has been with the trip.
You can tell from my posts that I am not the biggest fan of ACC-style missions. I think you will go, have a good time, meet fun people, and see a little bit of Mexico. I don't think you will make a lasting impact on the community in terms of church growth or economic development. If it is like past Juarez trips, I think a lot of the conversions and healings have more to do with miscommunication due to language barriers, and I think ACC spends little time on work projects.
Here is a scenario for why I think the fruit of these types of trips are overhyped: There are a bunch of poor people hanging around the neighborhood on a lazy Sunday afternoon. A group of energetic college kids who are dressed really well show up to play soccer and put on some skits. They have nothing else to do so a crowd gathers. They see that people that respond to the message are getting a lot of attention from these young, attractive Baylor students. More and more people respond. They are told that Jesus is all powerful and can fix their life. If they believe hard enough and let these nice college girls pray for them, then their life will be better. They think, "why not?, got nothing else to do today."
There is a very natural group excitement that I think has little to do with the power of the Holy Spirit. I do think God works through it because the Word of God is powerful. However, I think a lot of what happens can be explained as natural rather than supernatural. But since you were told all morning long during the 3 hour worship and teaching session to see everything through eyes of faith, then you as the messenger see it all through a supernatural prism. You are not there long enough to know these peoples prior stories or what happens to them next week. God knows - sure - and hopefully they seek him. I am just saying that the returning stories from these trips don't reflect reality because you don't know the reality.
I am not sure short-term missions aren't worth the cost. (I made that last post as something to think about.) I know several missionaries that I respect that were introduced to missions on short-term trips. I do however think it is good to know that when you go on a short-term trip, it is really about you. It is about introducing people to missions or a specific country or people group. There is little lasting impact, especially given the cost. I don't know a good solution to that problem. I think going somewhere and spending a significant amount of time building something or serving an existing ministry like an orphanage or clinic is more worthwhile.
Antioch uses these trips to hype signs and wonders, easy conversions, and push commitments from college students to become cogs in a machine as church planters. There is little reality to what it takes to make a lasting impact as a missionary.
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We don't go to mexico anymore, just on this side of the barrier. Plus we are working with local ministries to get people plugged into churches.
ReplyDeleteIt's a lot different now than what your explaining on this post. We're doing a lot of ministry at UT PANAM and start small groups and send teams of people back for about 4-5 weeks after we go to follow up with people.
You're right assuming that short term missions are more about developing faith in the people going, but it doesn't mean that God doesn't move.
I read this and just wanted to make a couple comments. Because I have lived in El Paso, TX, my entire life, I have intimate knowledge of the situation in Juarez. (and as a current baylor junior, I know several people who have gone on these trips)
ReplyDeleteHaving participated in different groups from churches, etc. from the El Paso area who go to Juarez to help people, I really have to wonder how a group of young people from Waco (who undoubtedly have an almost insurmountable language/culture barrier) don't have trouble doing anything productive in Juarez.
Frankly, probably some of the greatest experiences with Juarez I ever was fortunate enough to be a part of were times that we went to give shoes and food to the large groups of families with young kids living in the dump. Sure, these people knew we from a church in El Paso, and merely the fact that we were there, caring, and helping them (whether it be food, clothing, or houses--most of these people live in roughly constructed shacks from things they recovered from the dump) resulted in some interest in the religious aspect of it.
The fact that we could converse with these people and help them on a continuing basis (not to mention we would drive across the international bridge to help them--can you say 10 minute trip?) brought me to believe that we were really helping people. I don't see how putting on a skit, especially when you have a language barrier, is going to help anyone. At the end of the week, you go back to Waco, and the kids go back to struggling to survive.
I don't know the specifics, but Antioch normally partners with local churches and ministries to follow-up on short term trips. The summer short term trips are almost always to places where Antioch already has a church planted, and the short term folks go out and try to start relationships so that the long term team can continue them. In India, even on the short term trip I know they have planted churches and started lifegroups, and then sent a long term team in afterwards.
ReplyDeleteI did the juarez trip many times and in many facets of the system. Finally quit going bc we eventually quit doing anything useful - iow we quit doing things like cleaning up a vacant lot so orphans had a safe place to play so we could have 3-4 hour church services every morning to power up for the night. What a crock. How much power does it take to sing Alabare and mime a skit with a Michael W Smith cd? :)
ReplyDeleteHaving gone on the state side trip with ACC two years ago, I was blown away by what I experienced in seeing people experience the love and peace of Jesus when I shared the Gospel with them.
ReplyDeleteYou say that there is no lasting fruit from going and sharing the Gospel and praying and seeing people healed? I grew up Catholic and was under the impression that my good works and confessions to a priest would make me right with God. It was a priest that shared about a relationship with God through the person of Jesus with me and after I prayed I was changed and I knew it.
That was when I was 31 years old and I am currently 42. I had no one disciple me or follow up with me but somehow I was led by the Holy Spirit through many changes that I struggled with throughout my life that are now a vague memory.
I tell all this to say that it is the Holy Spirit who leads and guides us to all truth. For you to discount the divine encounters or the power of the Holy Spirit to use a drama and transcend language or for non Spanish speaking people to go through a spanish tract with someone and see them give their lives to Jesus as nothing short of a miracle of God is a grievous thing.
As a follower of Jesus Christ we are to take the teachings of Jesus and follow what His Spirit leads us to do. If you think that you can continue to honor God while discounting what His Spirit does, I would ask you to pray and ask Him if there is value in what is left when He moves into a person who invites Him...
I am one person who's life is fully given to Jesus and if it weren't for "a person" sharing with me in the manner in which you have debunked, I would never have had the desire and passion to go into the world and share Jesus.
I am sorry for your experience at ACC.
That's great - we here to share our confusion or pain celebrate every step closer to Jesus anyone makes however:
ReplyDeleteIt actually is not a 'blog dedicated to scrutinizing and nit picking the faults of a church.' Most of us understand we, the church, are not perfect and anywhere we go we bring ourselves. It is about a place where these things can not be talked about. Please read zealots opening comments...we hate something...but we love the people and the worship. And its pervasive and subtle. It is about submission where God has given liberty. Its about having one way to do things and being left out of using your gifts in your own church body because of this. And we must go here to this blog because we are not supposed to talk about it at church (shh only with your discipler) There are acceptable things to say and not say but I am not talking about scriptural mandates. Its about being so submissive that you don't have a thinking self. The problem is...all our friends and lives were rooted in Antioch, we have learned to distrust other Chritians and deep friendships take time. We are throwing off the 'don't talk, don't trust, don't think' for yourselves and coming out about what happened to us. Please don't scrutinize us. We know something is wrong and we need to talk about it...we probably care more about your health..love you than you do us (because we are the enemy that dares to think a different thought) but there is nothing wrong with talking for understanding or in sharing honest hurt and confusion about what happened to us. Let us be.
I strongly believe that salvation is the supernatural work of God. It's not something that humans or christians can make happen. That being said I'd like to share my personal opinions about the awaken trip.
ReplyDeleteI was really excited about this trip. With the way everyone talks about it, I thought it would be the most live changing event ever. However after two days of awaken I came to a realization that most of this is just emotional hype. Now I'm not bashing on Antioch, I love the church. However I noticed that most of it was fake. There are some people that were genuine about the whole event. But like some people would barely explain the gospel due to language barriers, get the people to pray a prayer, then consider them saved. Whoa back up. Since when do humans declare anybody to be saved. God does ALL the work and to Him be ALL glory.
Also during worship service, ugh, don't let me begin.... Some much "tears" and " spiritual experiences" were going on. See I like to be real and tell it how it is. As said earlier some people were genuine and some people were just acting....all churches have it's flaws, all we gotta do is to be real to ourselves.... So to anybody going to any church or any mission trip, my main advice is to be real to yourself.
I have persistently tried since my children became involved in missions with AMI, to understand the mission methods and philosophy of AMI. I am told that the short term missions team interfaces with the long-term team in the country. When I ask the name of the national church with which they work, I am then told about another AMI team that has been there a little longer. In other words, it is 1-2 week groups going over there to visit 1year groups, who are interacting with 3-4 year American groups. No language learning, no national church. I have studied effective cross-cultural outreach, and this is not it. But my children do not believe me. AMI is sadly lacking in effective and strategic partnering with national leaders and national churches -- who alone are the ones who will change their own culture.
ReplyDeleteIf you attend a large church the chances of significant errors in fundamental methodology increases immeasurably. This is the case with Antioch. The main leaders of this movement have sound Biblical theology and overall hold good and pure intentions but the practical execution of the visions and plans of the leaders are flawd. In my experience over the years, people are being hurt by becoming closely involved with AMI, Lifegroups and training school since many of the leaders of these parts of Antioch are not qualified to lead or serve in ministry. Many of the training school leaders as well as Lifegroup leaders are misrepresenting the founding leaders of Antioch and hurting people in the process. But as I mentioned before, this is the case with all major organizations and mega churches and I don't believe it is specifically an issue exclusively affecting Antioch or it's members.
ReplyDeleteOkay. I hate to be the downer, but it's time to point out the obvious. Religion isn't about God, service, other people, giving, etc. etc. Religion is about you. That's all it's about. Worship, prayer, contemplation, good works -- it's selfish. It's all about how you feel and your own self-assurance about the hereafter.
ReplyDeleteThat's the truth ~