I know I have been a little skeptical about faith-healing. I can't completely nail down my belief in this area. I do believe God heals people. He created an amazing process where our bodies self-correct. The last time my son scraped his knee, it miraculously got better. Every once in a while, I think He supernaturally intervenes. I don't believe he often uses a group of frenetic college students standing around you to do it. I don't think your sin or your non-submission to authority has anything to do with it.
I ran across the "testimony page" on ACC's website. It brought back bad memories of my experiences there. Here's one of the testimonies. Anything wrong with this picture?
Tracy had not been to Antioch in about two years, and she was excited to come and visit and to see her friend get baptized. She has breast cancer, and we gathered around her to pray. Interestingly, when I laid my hand on Tracy, the left side of my lower back started hurting. We prayed for God to heal the cancer, and then I asked Tracy if she also had back pain, and she said yes. I asked her if it was in her lower back on her left side, and she said yes. She said that she had a cracked vertebrae, the second vertebrae from the bottom, and that she had severe pain. I told her that since my back had started to hurt when I laid hands on her, I believed that the Lord wanted to heal her back. She was eager to receive prayer. We prayed for her back for several minutes and asked how she was doing, and she said that she was still in pain and that nothing had changed.
I confirmed that she had given her whole heart to Jesus. She earnestly said that she had. We prayed more, and I felt God speak that we needed to repent as a group for not submitting to authority. If we are insisting that demons submit to the authority of Jesus, then we need to be submitted to Him as well. I repented on behalf of all of these women (and myself!) for a lack of submission to God, to husbands, to pastors, and other men in authority. We all knelt down together. Something broke. Tracy started crying and smiling, and she said the pain was completely gone.
I clarified to see if it was "mostly gone" to see if we needed to pray more, and she said, "No- it is COMPLETELY gone!" I asked her, "What is something that you couldn't do before because of the pain?" and she replied, "Reach down and touch my toes." We encouraged her to get up and do it, and she did, with a very giddy look on her face. She immediately wanted to testify- she was so excited. She went up to the stage and was able to share on the microphone. It was awesome! Christi 2/25/07
If you peruse the page of testimonies, this is one of the more dramatic. I guess it is because they did all of that repenting. I find it curious that all of the testimonies are related to back pain, knee pain, ear pain, finger pain, and basically things that can't be diagnosed by a physician and then tested later by a physician. But hey, I guess Jesus wants her to touch her toes -- no word yet on the breast cancer...
The thing that makes me angry about it is that it distorts the character of God. It says, "this affliction is in your life because there is hidden or unrepentant sin in your life." Give me a break! There is tragedy in this world. Let it drive you closer to Jesus. Let Him embrace you, comfort you, and comfort your family. Don't let an over zealous weekend warrior suggest that it is because you forgot to repent for yelling at your husband last week! Bad theology, uh, I mean methodology.
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I remember many similar stories - all unmeasurable, all supposed cures of vague ailments. The other thing that struck me about the narrative was that the writer made sure to state that Tracy hadn't been to Antioch in 2 years - as if to say, "See what happens to those who leave the flock?"
ReplyDeleteI remember a lot of them being unmeasurable. Even when I was told that there was documentation supporting a miraculous healing, I personally never saw any of the documentation. I would have liked to have seen what documentation we had.
DeleteAlso, what about the testimonies of the people who were doing their best to do everything right, but were not getting healed instantaneously? Those of us in that category weren't allowed to share our testimonies of non-healings.
While I can understand wanting to celebrate God's goodness, suppressing our testimonies of non-healing was, in my opinion, a form of information control.
And honestly, how can you accurately calculate a rate of miraculous healing if you can't include all those in need of healing, not just those who get instantaneously healed at church?
What if it turned out that the actual rate of miraculous healings from submission to Antioch doctrine and practice was fairly low, if not even comparable to the general population (i.e., not statistically-significant)?
The way we can examine this is by completing a well-designed professional survey study comparing the rate of instantaneous healing from prayer among Antioch-influenced folks to the rate of spontaneous healing in the general population. Then we would hopefully start to have some actual empirical data.
One time I saw a big gash on someone's forearm close up when I prayed for it. it was pretty measurable...
ReplyDeleteDid they get healed from it right then and there? Because I don't think I heard anyone getting healed from that at Antioch.
DeleteBut, it may have happened. I think that God sometimes healed people.
Anyway, the point is that quite often, it's been claims that have been difficult to verify, not that God didn't heal people at all - and there certainly was the sense that we were to repent of our sins. Even then, if we still didn't get healed, it was not uncommon for Antioch leaders to accuse us of unrepentant sin - even when we didn't know what sins we still needed to repent of.
While I personally do not recall many incidents of healing being predicated on submission to Antioch-specific theology like the example Chilled Zealot brings up - which I can't find on Antioch's blog / website anymore - for people like myself who weren't able to get healed up following Antioch's method of repentance and forgiveness, the accusations of continued, unrepentant sin and "demonic oppression" from Antioch leaders has been very hurtful.
When I was there, having those labels on me made me feel like I was a second-class citizen, leper or Dalit (untouchable) in the church. It was rather dehumanizing.
it's called a blood clot
ReplyDeleteThat's an interesting way to look at it.
DeleteCertainly plausible, particularly in higher-risk demographics (maybe not college kids so much).
However, in most cases, we may not have medical documentation to verify that that's the case - and not just some ache or pain from some activity or a symptom of some other underlying ailment.
If it is some persistent problem, I would recommend medical evaluation.
One time I hurt my toe really bad and they prayed for it, but it still hurt!!!! gosh I hate faking things, and they just wanted to pray for it again....well guess what??? it still hurts!!!! sometimes they like to believe that you don't have faith wen u don't give the right answers! SERIOUSLY!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteYeah, there were times that healing did not occur.... like the time I had the flu (the respiratory illness), and I think two really nice guys from my Lifegroup laid their hands on me to pray for me, and it mostly just made me feel nauseated and put them at risk of getting the flu.
DeleteOops.
Yeah, we were kinda naive like that.
I don't think they got the flu, though, so maybe the Lord protected them?
Anyway, it was a nice gesture. Not so wise, maybe, but still a nice gesture.
And I prayed for a gal friend at Juarez once for I think her eyesight, and she did not get better, even though I wanted to believe she would. So, it doesn't always work.
BTW, Anon:
DeleteRather than pray over your toe, hopefully I would start by getting out my car First Aid kit and applying my training (albeit expired now; but I was trained a couple of years ago).
Usually if your toe hurts, there's something practical we can do to help alleviate the pain.
I'm not sure how often Antiochers remember this, but the Bible does talk about meeting people's practical needs (James 2:14-26). So, I think it's important.
I'm sorry you hurt your toe. Hopefully you feel better now. = )
'Scuse me: Rather than just pray over your toe...
DeleteI think prayer helps. I just think that meeting people's practical needs is important and often an answer to prayer, anyway.
I was healed of chronic illness at a ACC prayer time. Night and day difference. Woke up the next morning and started living again. But I lived through 5 years waiting and walking with God in the struggle before I was healed. Healing isn't a right, but it isn't made up either. You don't have to believe my story, but noone that knows me questions the change b/c it's obvious.
ReplyDeleteActually, a lot of us probably do want to believe that at least some of the healings are legit. And if you say that happened for you, then praise God! I'm happy for you. = )
ReplyDeleteFrankly, I think some were probably legit; some may have been but were difficult to discern one way or another; and I think some were probably kinda fake. But if it's been a legit healing for you, then I'll take your word for it.
It's just that lots of times, it seemed as if the issues would be random, ambiguous back / leg / toe pain that wasn't much of an issue before an Antioch faith-healer type* brought it up.
*By "Antioch faith-healer type", I mean any potential member from Antioch - and I do mean ANY member - that would want to pray for healing for someone. I mean, gee, that "faith-healer type" sometimes included me - not very often, because I was never in leadership; but it did sometimes occur.
Now, I will say: I did have an Antioch leader pray over my cell phone and some equipment from school one time when my backpack fell in the river when I was taking a water sample for my Aqueous Geochemistry class. The water was muddy, and that mud got into my cell phone and I think the pH meter / TDS reader I was borrowing.
ReplyDeleteThe electronic equipment was non-functional at that point (funny readings). I shut them off, got them home, took them apart (battery off, whatnot), submerged them in Waco tap water in the bathtub, dried them out, repeated the process, had an Antioch leader pray over them, put them back together, aaaand..... they worked!
But, you gotta realize: God and I were working together on that one. I was doing what I could to pull my weight, too.
So, did the prayer fix things? I don't know; but it may have helped.
Likewise, I let a missionary borrow my second car. It is a 19-year-old car (2000 - my old "college days" car). She prayed over it, and it has continued to run for 19 years so far, with no emissions violations.
So... has it been due to us maintaining the car over the years as best we can? Due to her prayers? I don't know. But her prayers may have helped.
The thought occurred to me at church this morning: I can think of 3-4 types of people when it comes to healings:
ReplyDeleteThose God has healed and are still alive;
Those God has healed but have passed;
Those God has not yet healed but are still alive; and
Those God did not heal and have passed.
Here are examples I can think of:
Healed and alive:
ReplyDeleteMy dad:
Three years after I left Antioch and returned home to my parents, my dad suffered a would-have-been-fatal heart attack, except that my dad was in the right place at the right time; recognized that he was having a heart attack; and got the help he needed in time to save his life.
The paramedics just happened to be trained in emergency stents and got one in my dad in time to save his life.
He also happened to be near a hospital with a pretty good reputation in cardiology.
The crazy thing? He was on a business trip in Ohio.
We almost never go to Ohio. It was such a random fluke.
Anyway, I prayed for my dad when I was told that he was having a heart attack, and the Lord has extended his life.
That was eleven (11) years ago.
At the time of this writing, my dad is 82 and still alive.
When I attended Antioch as a Baylor student, one of my Antioch leaders pressured me into disowning my parents. I did it, but I did not enjoy doing that.
A short while later, the spiritual abuse got so bad that I ended up in rehab.
Very shortly thereafter, a panel of three high-ranking Antioch leaders asked me to go live with the parents my lower-ranking leader required me to disown.
Y'know, that really hurt my dad in particular - to have me choose Antioch over him. We were able to rebuild our relationship after my time at Antioch; but that period of having a strained relationship was very hurtful for both of us. I mean, I had grown up a Daddy's girl. Prior to Antioch, we had been very close.
So anyway, when I think of how God restored our relationship and has extended my dad's life by more than a decade, allowing him to see me graduate from Baylor and grad school; allowing him to walk me and then my little sister down the aisle; allowing him to hold his granddaughters in his arms and play with them... this is one petition before the Lord that I am thankful that He granted.
It sort-of reminds me of the happy ending at the close of the book of Job. I hope it sends a message of encouragement to those who have endured strained relationships because of Antioch.
Another healed person (sort-of): Me. It took about 15 years to get through the bulk of the problems, probably largely because the height of the abuse for me occurred many years before this blog existed.
But, God has helped me heal. I mean, okay, granted, there are some scars; but they are fading in time - and the residual effects help me with discernment and wisdom when it comes to church teachings.
My faith looks differently now. It is not up to Antioch standards. But, I am okay with that. Frankly, I'm just glad to have my mind back, because it does feel like a new lease on life.
I'm not sure what the future holds, but I think I will see more good, more productivity, more societal contribution. At any rate, I will do my best to continue on that path. = )
Healed and passed: I can't think of any examples personally; but I realize my dad will end up on this list in time - but I like to think that the point was really the relational restoration, anyway.
ReplyDeleteBut to witness the Lord remember us after what we went through... I am grateful.
Those God has not yet healed, but are still alive:
ReplyDeleteI would imagine that probably many people would be on this list; but among those I've known, at last check:
Floyd McClung Jr. and I think his wife, Sally;
and maybe the wife of Pete Greig, charismatic leader and I think author of "Red Moon Rising" and "God on Mute".
These guys have not had an easy time with health issues. They have looked to the Lord for help, even though things have often been hard.
Those God did not heal this side of heaven and have passed:
ReplyDeleteOur friend, Jeff Watkins. He was a member of the prayer team and the motorcycle ministry from the church where I met my husband. I was involved in both of these ministries, and my husband I met through the motorcycle ministry. Jeff was blind, so he rode on the back of the leader's bike.
Jeff was a caring young man and a prayer warrior. He encouraged many people in our community who suffered from disabilities. Many folks who attended his funeral had disabilities and testified to how God had used him to encourage them and give them a sense of hope.
Of all the people in our church, we figured Jeff would be the most likely for God to have risen from the dead at his funeral.
It didn't happen.
But Jeff didn't have to suffer anymore, either. You see, he wasn't just blind. He had multiple health difficulties and disabilities. So, we just trust that the Lord is preparing a better life and body for him in the next life.
My uncle, David West: Uncle Dave was a kind and humble gentleman with a great sense of humor. He had been a P.E. teacher and had just retired a couple months prior, I think, when he was diagnosed with leukemia. He was undergoing treatment when I was an Antiocher. We prayed for him and believed that God was going to heal him.
It didn't happen.
Our brother in Christ, Danny Sullivan: Danny and his wife Linda were faithful members of my parents' church. They drove a long distance to serve in our church on Sundays. Danny was a godly man. He was likable and had a decent sense of humor. He probably taught at my parents' church at some point as a lay leader. I can't remember. I just know that the Sullivans were part of our church family. Then Danny got cancer. We prayed, and the cancer went into remission.
We thought God had healed him.
We were wrong.
It came back. And took him.
Those things happen. They are a part of life in a fallen world.
It still hurts. A lot.
Especially when you are the spouse, family member or close friend left behind.
I know that some Antiochers know what this is like. Whether it's a family member with a disability or mental illness or a death in the family, these things happen to Antiochers, too.
ReplyDeleteThe healings don't always come this side of heaven, and it's not always about our sin. Sometimes it's the result of original sin.
It doesn't make someone less of a Christian because they are suffering in an imperfect world.
This world has been corrupted. We should not be surprised by sorrow and suffering; but rather, we should let them serve as a reminder of why we need Jesus.
So, let us rejoice in God's miraculous healings when they occur; but let us fulfill the entirety of the verse: mourning with those who mourn, even as we rejoice with those who rejoice (Romans 12:15).
It's the bittersweet reality of life when we follow Jesus in a fallen world.