It has been several months since I have posted something new. When I think of things to write, I realize that most of what I want to say has been said in previous posts, and I don't want to exhaust you with criticism. It's kind of like going to church on Sunday morning and wondering after the hour-long exhortation if the pastor couldn't have made his point in fifteen minutes. Brevity is often lost on those who think they have important things to say.
Despite there being fewer comments than I was hoping for there is substantial traffic on this blog each week so I hope that you are finding some of the ramblings interesting. For those that are first time visitors, I would suggest reading the "Blog's Purpose" link and start at the beginning.
Please feel free to leave comments so all of us can learn from your insight!
-Chilled Zealot
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You need to have a contact number on your
ReplyDeleteblog so people can write you and know you
are not someone with just a beef. Several
people have been hurt in Mike Bickle type groups. The heresies Bickle promotes is enough to call him a false teacher/leader.
Well you definitely got it right calling out Mike "Sexual Abuser" Bickle. The fact that the Antioch Movement, Jimmy Seibert latched onto that monster shows how awful and abusive Antioch's style is.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your blog! I have been reluctant to comment for many reasons, not the least of which being I am not entirely sure if my opinion would be helpful or even welcome.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate all the information out there (what little there is) on people's negative interactions with ACC. I was very active from 1997-2000. I was even "friends" with many of the higher-ups. When I left (I moved away, but I had been gradually weaning myself off for half a year or so), I felt almost abandoned by those who I thought were friends. I spent several years being very bitter about it all (so many truly negative interactions with the church). I have gradually grown in what has been a slow and painful process. I am no longer bitter, but I am looking for answers for myself and others.
I don't wish to speak negatively about ACC. I actually think (and maybe this is just faith in the non-religious meaning of the word) that many people associated with ACC truly believe in what they preach and really are good people at heart. We are all just human. And I feel like perhaps I made it a cult. I'm not sure if that makes any sense, but the best way I can explain it is that I think ACC in and of itself (as it was when I was there) was not a cult, but my willingness to buy into it so blindly and wholeheartedly made it one for me. And I take responsibility for this.
Anyhow, this is long enough. I am more than willing to expound upon this if anyone would like me to. I only care to keep things factual and not emotional. And again, it is not my wish to disparage ACC, only to relay my experiences and what I have learned from them. Just to warn you though, if you haven't figured it out already, I am quite a wordy person.
It is my hope that all of you dealing with your experiences with ACC, whether it is now or in the past, can come to some sort of peace about it all. I understand the hold it has on your life. I am 31 years old and those 3-4 years from my late teens/early 20s still haunt me to this day.
Peace.
I would like to talk more, my wife & I are thinking about giving them a visit
Deleteyou seem sincere & you don't have a bad spirit. You also understand we are all human, it seems it was just not for you.It's a free country & our own responsibity to make moral & spiritual decisions & not be controlled or led astry by those in authority, be they preachers, politicians, friends, relatives or even spouses. God does not force his will on us, he wants us to choose to follow him, not robots or coersed, H e wants us to be a free moral agent. He don't want us to do something out of people pleasing. He loves us so much that even if we decide not to follow he will not stop us. Relationship not bondage,we will even let us choose HELL!
DeleteSGB,
ReplyDeleteI attend ACC now, this is my second year, and I've started realizing a few things I was blind to before, I'd love to hear more of what you went through, I'm starting to question if I should keep going. Thanks
Hi Anonymous ACC attendee!
ReplyDeleteSo, first and foremost let me just say I am no biblical scholar. I’m not even a terribly good Christian. I want to help you as best I can, but only you know what is best for you. Take what I have to say and pray, go to the Bible, and search out other Christians who can walk with you through this process.
First, I think it is very important that you are ok with your questioning. One of the things I noticed was how ACC taught me not to question, that questioning was BAD. Now, I don’t blame ACC for this, I was the one that acquiesced having an opinion and expressing that opinion. I had so many questions back then (and still do!). I was raised in an Episcopal church by a Jewish mother and Baptist father. ACC was the first Evangelical church I had ever been to. But I learned very quickly not to question. Questioning highlighted the fact that I was not one of them, yet. Questioning meant that I was still a “baby Christian.” Questioning meant I had not fully submitted myself to their authority. Questioning meant not being treated as an equal.
If you are anything like me, you need to question in order to strengthen your faith. Perhaps you need to let the questions be there, to let them rock you a bit, to leave you a bit insecure so that you actively search for the answers. And when you find the answers, your faith becomes so much stronger than before. Now, to the average ACCer (if I may be so bold as to generalize), my faith probably looks pretty weak. But that’s ok, I know internally my faith is a million times stronger now with my questions laid bare than it was when I had buried them deep inside while externally parroting those around me.
The thing to remember is not everyone is wired this way (and perhaps even you aren’t, I am largely guessing here). But if you are, be ok with it. Remember you are ultimately God’s creation—your personality is a product of his doing. Please be at peace with who you are.
So practically what should you do? It is hard to leave ACC. Many people you have come to know as friends, people you trust in and people you look up to probably won’t understand why you are pulling away. One of the administration (who I think is no longer there) asked, upon me telling her I was transferring to another school, how I was going to remain faithful (in my opinion, she was implying that leaving ACC was in effect a renunciation of my faith). I answered that if I fall away, then I was never a Christian to begin with. What can I say? I was feeling particularly bold that day.
(It looks like I've let it run too long! I'll continue in another post below.)
On the questioning issue: I did that, too - for a couple of years in the recovery phase. In fact, the reason why I called my dissident blog "Wandering Dolly Sods" was because I am a bit of a hiker and just got to the point that I had to entrust my faith journey to the Lord, like going on a hike on a new trail. I had to trust that the Lord would sustain me the entire way, no matter how far I would seem to stray by Antioch standards.
DeleteIt can be tough. I admit: there were times when I wasn't sure I would be able to maintain my faith. The accusations I faced from a lot of Christians I knew - particularly in the Evangelical community - was hard to deal with - almost impossible. But I kept searching for answers, and the Lord gave me what I need when I needed it.
Eventually, I started getting to the point that I didn't care what Antiochers and Evangelicals thought of my faith - because my faith journey was mine, not theirs.
If you get stuck, resources like Yeakley (Ed.) Norton, Vinzant & Vinzant (1988) The Discipling Dilemma (a book), Mary Alice Chrnalogar's Twisted Scriptures and Steven Hassan's Combating Cult Mind Control - resources like those - may help you in your faith and / or help you make sense of things. And, I think Rev. Pete Zimmerman had success through the Wellspring spiritual abuse recovery ministry.
It reminds me a bit of when I became a sophomore and took an R.A. position. We had weekly meetings that interfered with my lifegroup meetings, so I had to switch lifegroups. I told my leader this (or I thought I had, apparently I did not do a particularly good job communicating this) and she broke off contact with me. It wasn’t exceptionally dramatic, just that we didn’t really talk afterward. In fact, with as busy as I had become I didn’t really notice there was any animosity, I just thought our social circles had taken us in different directions. Well, one Sunday she came up to me after services and told me she forgave me and needed to know that I had forgiven her. I told her I didn’t know what she was talking about (I really didn’t!). And she said that when I left her lifegroup she was angry and felt like I was just trying to befriend more powerful people in the church (I can’t quite remember how she phrased it, but the overall implication was that I was trying to climb the social ladder, so to speak). I was speechless. I said I forgive her, basically to get her to leave me alone at this point. I have to say though, looking back, I’m impressed that she expressed this insecurity that ran rampant while I was there—the whole hero worship issue. I honestly think the administration doesn’t know it exists, or at least didn’t when I was there. I worked some in the administration offices and I have nothing negative to say about a single person there. I really do believe they are kind, caring, faithful individuals. But there was so much hero worship at the lifegroup level. I mean, there were people who stood in awe at the fact that I talked to several high-profile individuals in the church on a regular basis. It was unsettling for me and created an odd dynamic between me and my friends.
ReplyDeleteOk, back to practicalities for you. I did pray about this for you, and again take what I say and adapt it as needed for yourself. If I was in your position (and I’m largely guessing what your position is), I think I would start seeking out some independent Christian guidance from someone who can walk with you (not lead you, not push you, but walk hand-in-hand with you). You may be able to find this at ACC, you never know. Just remember God does not only work through one church and no church is perfect. ACC is the right church for some, it may not be the right one for you. And maybe it was the right one for you last year, but not this year. Be understanding and forgiving of yourself. Maybe you will leave only to come back. That’s ok. That’s more than ok because think of how much stronger your faith will be once you have answered those questions keeping you from fully committing to ACC. So ask around. If you are anything like me, you have largely alienated your non-ACC friends, so this may be a bit difficult, but keep at it. Talk to your professors (I'm assuming you are a Baylor student). I would begin considering visiting other churches. The way it used to be, there were a couple of Sunday services and a weekday service. Don’t quit ACC cold turkey, I think this would leave you more regretful than not. Balance ACC with other church services until you find the right fit. This might lead you to leave ACC altogether, it may lead you to attending another church on Sundays and ACC during the week, it may lead you to only stick with lifegroup. Who knows? Only you and God know what your path looks like. Trust that you hear from him and trust that he is talking to you and leading you down the right path. And most of all know that mistakes will be made by all, including yourself, and that’s ok. Correct them as they arise, seek His forgiveness, and try again.
Peace
SGB,
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for your story and advice. I think I'll try going to a few different churches but stick with my lifegroup for awhile. I think I was starting to rely more on the people there than my own relationship with God if that makes sense. It's nice to know that I'm not the only one with questions, I think that is a flaw in many churches, not feeling comfortable asking the tough questions without being looked down upon, like I'm not strong enough in my faith. But again thank you so much, I guess sometimes it takes hearing from a stranger to realize what I need to do.
:)
Please continue writing. This blog may be the only voice of dissent many Antioch members will ever see. It may be the only comfort an Antioch member has that they are not alone in questioning whether the church and it's individual members are following Christ's true path. And it may be the only glimmer of hope for those who are trying to rebuild thier life outside of Antioch after they have severed all ties with the world beyond the church's walls.
ReplyDeleteDo not fall into the same trap as Antioch. Spreading Christ's love does not require the sounding of a trumpet from a mountaintop
in some exotic land for all the world to hear. It is enough to truly connect with one person in pain and offer them some hope. I believe that is what you are offering here.
I went to Baylor from 2002-2006 and had gone to Highland a couple of times but never Antioch, even though I had friends that tried to get me to go.
ReplyDeleteSo just out of curiosity-what happened to make Antioch break off from Highland? Also, does Antioch consider itself its own denomination, hence all the Church plantings?
As I was told when I reached out to Highland, differences in how to do church. When I was with Antioch, we were expected to do things a very particular way. A lot of other churches will often keep things a bit less-structured / a bit more open-ended.
DeleteAntioch considers herself "non-denominational". I dispute this claim. I believe that the Antioch Movement very much qualifies as her own denomination, because of her general, common church branding and what appear to be roughly the same doctrines and practices.
While playing on the internet today I ran into all this info about Antioch and Jimmy Seibert.
ReplyDeleteAll I can say about all of my readings today on blogs, etc is YIKES!
Maybe its a Baylor thing - because Jimmy grew up near me in Beaumont, Texas. He was a good guy and athlete and involved in High School activities. He was fun and could put down a few beers I remember.
I guess Jimmy's experience in Beaumont attending St. Andrews Presbyterian was a little to conservative for him - now it sounds like he is speaking in tongues and faith healing just like Benny Hinn. Once again, YIKES.
Sounds like Jimmy's missionaries are way to in your face for many parts of our World. Sad that on several occasions our government has had to act to rescue one of Jimmy's "Barbie Bimbos" from the Muslims.
Antioch ain't no Presbyterian church. I would know: I was confirmed in the PC(USA) tradition about a year or so before I chose Antioch as my church home in Waco.
DeleteYeah, they have done the speaking in tongues thing; but it isn't as hard-core as some other churches, and they do seek interpretations most of the time.
No Benny Hinn that I saw; charismatic, yes, but in a bit of a quieter, more orderly manner than what I've seen in some other charismatic churches. Charismata can be abused, though - by both leaders and members.
I am only aware of one time Special Ops, I think it was, rescued two Antioch missionaries. That was in Taliban Afghanistan, I believe - the story is told in "Prisoners of Hope" (the book).
Hey, I go to an ACC plant. I have been going for a year and a half. Know all the leaders personally. I was a leader for a semester, but timing and such shifted in my life, and I needed a season to rest.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I have heard expressed many times (including today) is that their desire is to be open and honest in all things. If you have these concerns, the best policy is to always go straight to leadership. I have personally done that many times, and they are more than willing to explain the reasons they do things and the Biblical basis. Might be worth trying.
BTDT (Been there, done that).
DeleteDidn't work.
Three Antioch Movement churches: Waco, TX; Phoenix, AZ; All People's Church-San Diego, CA.
They and I seem to have different theology. I have my concerns with what Antioch believes and practices, so I persist in my concerns.
As for Antioch-Waco, they would not let me speak with Jimmy Seibert, anyway - even though I had a personal concern I wished to address with him privately. I was not allowed to speak with him at all. As in, I was not even allowed to ask for an appointment a month or more later.
That was somewhere around about early-ish 2017, I think.
There has been a paradigm shift at antioch over the past few years that is quite disturbing. Jimmy used to teach us that, "There are two kinds of people in this world. Those who do whatever it takes to get what they want, and those who do whatever it takes to change. You have to decide which one you will be." Antioch has become a mechanism. We have heard from the pulpit that they do not desire to be a Mega Church, yet they desire to be a global church. It is hard to endure hardship like a good soldier when you have never paid bills with money you've earned. There is something about being older that seasons your life so that you can truly be salt to the world. When you are 20 you have a strong passion with very little knowledge. When you are older you count the cost, study the Word. There aren't enough old people at antioch. There is no one to teach the young mothers how to love their husbands and children. Their is no one to guide the young men into true manhood.
ReplyDeleteI don't know who Chilled Zealot is, yet having read many of the posts here I would say he, or she is right on. To know Jimmy better you have to understand his mentor, Robert Ewing. If you do a search on him you may find some interesting information.(Salt Sister). I left antioch 1.5 years ago. It was because of their shift to the left through sermons on "Social Justice", and the quota system set up to attract more African Americans. "Oh, your a racist". No, I am not. antioch has had at least 10 people living in that little square from Waco Drive to Bosque, and 18th to 25th street. Now there are masses. Antioch has been there for almost 10 years with little head way made in that area, other than amassing great portions of real estate. If you judge antioch's performance there based on the Ralph Neighbors' idea then ACC Waco is a miserable failure.
With the onset of "Ignite" I first became aware of the mechanism. I was at the conference. It was a sales meeting. Everyone at my table knew it. When we pressed the leader at our table on how they were implementing it at antioch he said they had only just begun to try it in Jimmy's life group. They were selling a product they hadn't even tested. They took a course designed by a marketing team that had researched the growth of an under ground church in China, exposing that church to persecution just by researching there. This research was packaged into a glossy manual and marketed as "Ignite". There is only one key ingredient missing. Persecution. The Church in China is being imprisoned, tortured, and executed. We in the West are lucky to get a speeding ticket because we are late for Church. The last time I looked the Church in the U.S. wasn't being executed. Now maybe we are a little late to get in line for Chuy's, that's only if you go to the late service, but no death, no torture, and no imprisonment. So the plan that this little Chinese couple was given by God, cannot be translated into a worldwide movement by pasty white College kids that have never paid taxes other than the sales tax on their American Eagle skinny jeans, and have only seen persecution on CNN.
Jimmy was my pastor for 20 years. My guide for life used to be, "What would Jimmy do?" "How would Jimmy respond". There was a time when I trusted him implicitly, and he was that trustworthy. Now I am a father in my own right. Not just with children, but with an equipping that God gave me partly through a man I love dearly. He is not my pastor anymore. Yes, I love him, and I will never be apart of antioch again. What antioch has become is not what we were taught in the beginning. It is time for antioch to return to Solas Scriptura, and the other 4 Solas.
When I found your blog I was first struck by the verse you used. I had received the same verse while studying the scriptures over these same issues. I have had many discussions with friends who have left ACC. We have been encouraged that we are not the only people who see these things. Someone mentioned some missionaries that have endured past the 5 year wall. The Adams, the Muellers, the Mahlers, and the Franzens are all families that have laid down their lives. The first church plant was done by Karen Mahler, Sonya Huisman, and Ben Cox. All of these people are old school MC. Your posts on the new short term machine are apart of the paradigm shift that I mentioned before. One of the aforementioned also expressed disappointment over what he termed, "ant teams" that were more interested in the next greatest "Dynamic" ministry opportunity rather than slogging along with the established long term ministry they were called to. There are a great many things that I will comment on here. I have already written most of them, and will share them in segments. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteExcellent observation about the old-school Master's Commission missionaries / church planters.
DeleteIf I met one of those families - which I think I did - then yes, those family members did seem to have more maturity than most.
This is a letter I wrote to a friend:
ReplyDeleteI think all this discussion of the mind is stirring something deeper than we can imagine. On occasion I listen to John McArthur on the radio. Mind you, now, I am a fire breathing charismatic Jesus freak. John McArthur is not Charismatic in the least, yet he has an excellent grasp on the truth in God's word. He has definitely exercised his mind. In one of his sermon's,"Charismatic Chaos: Are Experiences A Valid Source Of Truth?", he made many valid points about the Charismatic movement. One of those statements was right in line with the study on "The Scandal Of The Evangelical Mind".
"Charismatics, like Jews of Paul's day have zeal without knowledge. Enthusiasm without enlightenment. They are often approaching truth without their minds, without thinking. Some even claim that God deliberately gives people unintelligible tongues in order to bypass and thus humble the proud human intellect. Beloved this is a serious and tragic error. Clark Pinock (sp.) once said, "We cannot allow these people to draw their theology out of their experience. Whenever the existential cart is put before the historical horse theology becomes a synthesis of human superstition and putting LSD into the communion is fair play."
I actually took a look at a "Strange Fire" or related teaching by John MacArthur. While he may be biased against charismata, I still thought he brought up some great points that charismatics should consider.
DeleteContinued:
ReplyDeleteAnything to induce an experience. Christianity is in serious danger, victimized by the experiential spirit of the day, the legacy of mysticism. It must be tested by the Word of God. We are going to do our best to do that. At least you know from the start that experience is not the valid test for truth--the Word is. And your experience flows out of the ministry of the Spirit through the Word to your life. "http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=2177
Of course I do not agree with every thing he says because he throws the proverbial baby out with the bath water, yet he makes a very poignant point that strikes a deep nerve in me. The evangelical church as a whole, especially the charismatic movement, does something very interesting. We worship the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, and strength. We call the soul the mind(thinker), will(chooser), and emotions(feeler), yet we don't actually worship with all of these attributes. Mark quotes Jesus as saying,
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. (Mark 12:30)
We, as Charismatics, definitely worship with heart, will, emotions, and strength. Our experiences have lead us into the most divine worship services. We have learned how to enter the throne room of the most high God. We have also stopped thinking. We don't worship God, or glorify him with our minds. We are spiritual Epicureans, with the mental development of a 2 year old. We laugh, and play, cry, and sing, yet we know very little outside of our own minimal experience. Paul preached, and taught from the truth of the scriptures, then miracles were manifested. He suffered severity for telling the truth from the word, not from performing miracles. Because of the truth, and his suffering, God worked through him miraculously. We have happy, positive experiences, yet we do not have suffering because we do not teach, and preach the truth. I think we are on the verge of an outpouring of the truth. The reality of biblical knowledge combined with the unction, and fire of the Holy Spirit. The western world is devoid of truth. We have given ourselves over to worldly wisdom much like that of our predecessors the Greeks, and the Romans. The propinquity of our demise is immanent, yet there is hope in Christ. Knoll and McArthur are right, we, the evangelical elite, the illuminati, have the keys to the kingdom of God. We have locked the door from the outside. We do not let others in, nor do we enter in ourselves. We have become the very thing we hate. Pharisees, hypocrites, "the blind leading the lied to". I am inspired by the revelation of the truth to press onward into the truth of God's word. To study to show myself approved, to test the spirits, and teachings of our pastors, and teachers. Those who have become our leaders. To humbly accept the truth, and apply it, even if it is contradictory to what I may have been taught in the past. I look forward to walking with this school in this adventure into the unknown realm of the mind. I love mysteries. God bless you. Keep up the good works, being justified by your most holy faith. In Christ, Neill Morris
I really wish you would continue on with your blog. As you can tell by the numerous comments here, there are plenty of us that feel the same. We need a place to come and discuss and vent and consider and relate. I know I went through a long period in my life where I was angry. I feel like I have balanced out quite a bit, but it would have been so nice to have someone to talk to during my angry period. As it was, I largely went through it alone. It's only now that I've started to try to approach it rationally and seek out others.
ReplyDeleteDo you need ideas to spur on your end of the discussion? Maybe talk about certain events that happened or things that really got under your skin. Talk about the good things, too. Nothing is black and white, and treating it as such only exacerbates the problems. Maybe get other people to contribute? Hearing all sides of the story would be beneficial.
I think what you started here is very important, and I haven't found anything else like it on the web. Please don't quit.
SGB
I know what happened with Highland. I was on staff. Jimmy wanted every ministry run through Lifegroups - no programs, per se, like Sunday schools or choir, etc. When HBC wouldn't do it he said he'd leave and take half the church with him. HBC decided it would be bad for the city, for the people and honestly, bad for their reputation (can you say "Don Crossland"?) for there to be such an ugly split, so they agreed to call it a "plant" and even gave ACC a chunk of change in seed money. There wasn't supposed to be any recruiting, but things soon got ugly. If you were there, you would know. It was horrid. Sickening. Anyway, that's what happened. No one wants to talk about it, but the whole thing is so like a dysfunctional family - and as anyone familiar with that scenario knows, secrets never make anything better. ;p
ReplyDeleteI guess the contact I heard from from Highland gave me the sanitized / neutral version:
DeleteDifferences in running church.
Jimmy Seibert wanted to do something different.
Now, in the version I was told, Seibert was submitted to the leadership at Highland.
What really happened? I don't know. But one thing that seems consistent is the whole notion of "doing church differently" - and by differently, I think we mostly mean getting pretty much everyone in Lifegroups.
Hi, I know this was from a long time ago, but I'm trying to learn more about the Don Crossland scandal and learning more about the Highland-Antioch "multiplication would be helpful too, if anyone has anything they'd like to share.
DeleteIn the mid-80s (I was a child, but a member of the church back then), Pastor Don Crossland apparently had some affairs & cheated on his wife. And then, OMG!!!!!, he came out as gay. In the 80s, this made NATIONAL news & to this day Highland is ashamed of it as if he murdered people or something. Sure is nice that Highland is full of all perfect members now, especially with leaders, who who never make a mistake, or do things that others perceive as a mistake & use the bible to justify their hate & stupidity.
DeleteBut that was it. Not really a big deal whatsoever. A "scandal" in the 80s, not even a blip on a radar if it happened today (except at Highland where they are still small, closed-minded people who love their misinterpreted scriptures & pick & choose what they like & ignore). Yes the 80s were bright & AWESOME in many many wayz, but the homophobia, bigotry, & sexism was a huge dark spot in the 80s as well. But yeah, not a big deal actually, but in the 80s & with Highland people it was earth shattering.
And the whole blaming yourself for stuff - like you being the one who made it a cult? That is so codependent... Neill, doll, I so remember you and you have such a keen mind and I also remember that you were the sweetest, nicest person. So don't let that kind-heartedness get the best of you and make you take the blame for the stuff that happened to you! Your perceptions are right on. In layman's terms, ACC is a hot mess!
ReplyDelete"And the whole blaming yourself for stuff - like you being the one who made it a cult? That is so codependent... Neill,"
ReplyDeleteI never said that,or even implied that, so why would you say that? I have only talked to three people about my feelings on the antioch melt down, so which one are you? I'm in the phone book so give me a call.
Neill, sorry. SGB said that. Lots to read, got bogged down and made a mistake. Sorry to have offended. (Not one of the three, won't be calling - and BTW, your last post came across as really...mean! Ouch!)
ReplyDeleteBut on that note, every person I've ever talked to who has come out of the ACC thing though has blamed themselves for it on some level - usually blaming the organization, the leaders, etc. dead last. "I wasn't spiritual/discerning/faithful/dedicated/fill-in-the-blank enough" - and blaming one's self when mistreated by others is a very co-dependent mindset.
I have often thought it would be very interesting for a doctoral student in psychology to do a study of members and former members of ACC to find out if there is a higher-than-average number of people with codependent families of origin or codependent characteristics who attend there - and/or if a higher-than-average number of people develop those behaviors after attending for a length of time. I'm not saying every person there is a codependent, but it is strange that so many people in and out of the ACC system are so quick to blame themselves for any problems encountered instead of looking at the system and ideology.
For example, I remember when there was a huge deal made out of the guy lifegroup leader being a "covering" for the girl lifegroup leader - which is ludicrous to me now as fully-fledged, married adult. I mean, how can two college-age kids or just-out-of-college, not married to each other, not even necessarily legal to vote, kids be a covering one for the other? It was really silly, in restrospect, but most people just said, "Okay. This guy who is two years younger than me whose parents still pay his bills and doesn't know how to do his own ironing is now my spiritual covering. I feel so much more secure in my spiritual walk!" I think the guys found themselves in a position of responsibility they weren't ready for and the girls feeling diminished in their ability to lead. Not everyone - some people were perfectly fine with the arrangment - but it was WEIRD for a lot of people. Some of the guys went really overboard with the whole spiritual authority thing and some of the girls were just paralyzed by thinking they had to check everything out with their guy co-leader. And talk about weird, weird crushes... But no one though, "Gee, maybe it's that we are in an artificial marriage relationship instead of simply being co-leaders of a little Bible study/community group..."
Incidentally, I think it's interesting on this board that most of us - including the blog author - don't want to share our names. I don't because I've already experienced the shaming/blackballing that is the price of "defecting" - and I have worked hard to distance myself from any and all that have anything to do with ACC and don't want to subject myself to it again in case there are trolls reading this. But, I'm curious about the other posters - how come you don't post your names? No judgment from me, obviously, just wondering if you also had the bad experience when you jumped ship.
Neill, again, really sorry to have offended you. Obviously, this is still a very painful subject for all who post on here, even years past, and I am very sorry to have added to your pain. That wasn't my intention at all. No one has broken your confidence, I just had the wrong poster in mind when I replied.
Peace to all and happy holidays.
On co-dependency and family of origin: I grew up in a tight-knit family, but it seemed fairly healthy to me, just fairly close.
DeleteI generally felt as if I could speak my mind and mostly be myself in my family, because I felt secure in those relationships.
Antioch? Forget it. I had to keep quiet as often as I could to avoid further control and / or accusations.
When I asked too many questions, I ended up needing to be "delivered of""demonic oppression". That process was enough to break me for a long while - make sure I was "submitted" to the leaders and guys.
Over time, especially in the context of being a female non-leader and thus needing to submit to both leaders and guys, I learned that I would be making fewer and fewer decisions. So, after a while, I just quit making so many decisions for myself. I mean, Antioch made it abundantly clear to me that my life was no longer all that much my own responsibility, because of my spiritual leaders / coverings.
Antioch taught me that I had to submit all the time. This weakened my self-confidence and left me feeling inferior to guys - certainly powerless even to partner with God to affect my own destiny. I was too afraid of allegedly losing God's favor - missing out on alleged blessings that never came - and / or possibly ending up jumped by demons.
I had to be submissive, and for me, that meant being passive.
I couldn't think. Not really. The cognitive dissonance never went away. It was always there in the background. I just had to do my best to ignore it, rationalize it, etc.
I chose to be "submissive" - subdued, passive, co-dependent on leaders / disciplers / church - as a survival mechanism, since I could not stand up for myself and free myself in that environment.
Seibert's sermons in particular tended to be fodder for developing this type of submissive mentality. It might be just one thing he'd say in an entire sermon; but it would be enough to control us.
It was definitely a learned dependence in my case - and it took me a process to unlearn it after I left, too.
For clarity: other Antioch leaders taught on submission and obedience as well. The thing was that in Seibert's sermons, psychological manipulation tended to be more common than in the sermons of many other Antioch leaders, as I recall.
DeleteThank you, SGB, for your apology and explanation. Part of my anger was from the assumption of behavior without a question as to the existence of said behavior. I was being accused without a trial:) For 20 years I had been apart of what I thought was the closest thing to the real church as I had seen. I guess, like many others I had the wool of blind allegiance pulled down over my glory clouded eyes. Then, after going through an unexpected awakening, partly through a ministry I became apart of that was actually focused on the Word of God, I started seeing allot of things were amiss. I guess I had been seeing it even before antioch left Highland. I just hadn't been putting all the clues together. Then, when antioch asked the church to get involved in a new direction, then drastically changed direction, completely abandoning the previous course, it all started coming together. The sales meeting for Ignite, the radical shift left just before the election of Barack Obama, trying to seem more black than they were. It just smacked of deception. I have mentioned a phrase Jimmy used, "There are two kinds of people,...those who do whatever it takes to get what they want, and those who do whatever it takes to change." Those who do whatever it takes to change are doing whatever it takes to get what they want. The two are the same. One just appears to be righteous, while the other is obviously selfish. antioch was doing whatever it took to get what they wanted. Whatever it takes to get us to conform. Conform to what? To the image of Christ, or the image of antioch? antioch had become a mechanism with the sole purpose of cranking out converts, and teaching them to crank out more. Your personality doesn't matter. You just need to act outside yourself. As to sharing my name...I have nothing to lose. Are they going to kick me out? I have no connection there. As to being kicked out: I have been kicked out of the house, kicked out of the military, kicked out of jobs, kicked out of the Church, and kicked out of ministry. The latter wasn't because of bad behavior, it was for taking my daughter to a psychiatrist because of apparent ADD/ADHD. Legalism is a sin, just like sexual immorality. I have questioned my motives for leaving antioch, and I have felt guilty, yet I know that what I saw was right, and leaving was the right thing to do. If you are still at antioch leave now. You have nothing to lose, and a life to gain. Find some place with families, and old people, where sanity is more important than activity. Where Jesus is the reason for church, and not life groups. Where people will love on you and pray for you. Where it is good to question authority when they are unscriptural, and you only sing the song once. Get away from the brain washing mantra style worship. Stop feeling guilty for not preaching the gospel to everyone at the store, and find out from the Word of God what it truly means to love with No Condemnation.
ReplyDeleteNeill, that was wonderful - especially those last few sentences. I wish we could tell everyone the same thing and make them listen. I am hoping my kids will leave, but they seem more entrenched than ever. I want them all to know the kind of love and freedom that you were talking about. No condemnation. No deception.
DeleteThose who will do whatever it takes to change, and those who do whatever it takes to get what they want - one in the same type.... conforming to the image of Antioch.... wow, great analysis, Neill. Thanks!
DeleteConforming to the image of Antioch, acting outside of ourselves, because personalities don't matter - I would sort-of agree - I think it has to do with what your personality was beforehand.
A resource I read as part of my healing process was Yeakley (Ed.), Norton, Vinzant & Vinzant (1988) "The Discipling Dilemma", a book with a personality study of the Boston Church of Christ, which uses discipleship and small groups in a manner similar to Antioch.
They found personality convergence toward I think the top 2-3 leader types in the church, which is considered a sign that a group is a high-control group. I've wondered if the same thing's been going on with Antioch.
And yes, I likewise found that I eventually gained more than I lost by leaving Antioch for healthier churches. But for me, getting theologically completely out took time.
DeleteThe main thing I had to understand was that we do not have to reconcile to forgive.
We can forgive without reconciling - and should do that, when our abusers have been - and continue to be - unrepentant in their sin of abuse toward us.
"Brain washing mantra style worship" - yeppers. With a sermon sandwiched between two 45-minute worship sets and the lights too low in the church to be able to use worship time to read the Bible / check for error, even as you're surrounded by people getting caught up in the music, or amen-ing everything the teacher says...
DeleteThis is part of how I went from having a measure of independent thinking and some discernment to co-dependence and impaired discernment while at Antioch.
It took a while to restore things.
There is nothing mechanical about the Holy Spirit. There is distinct order in God's Word, and out of that order flows grace. No one can change that order, not even antioch. When it is changed legalism ensues. Repentance from sin, restore order with God's word, the Holy Spirit begins flowing. You cannot have revival outside of this order. "That's kinda legalistic don't you think, Neill?" Look at every time Israel returned to God in the Old Testament, then compare it to Acts. See any difference? No, because there is none. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. You can't make a revival happen by force, or just by "doing the stuff". It comes through corporate humility and brokenness. There is a battle coming, and the children of antioch are not prepared. They play with plastic swords in mock battles, and wear armor of cardboard to ward off the faint blows from Nerf arrows shot by their little brothers. The watchmen see the hoards of hell coming from the east, and they are armed for battle with terrible force. Wake up O sleeper and rise from the dead. Clothe yourselves for battle, clothe yourselves with Jesus Christ. He is the armor of God. Only the humble will stand. Come out from among them and live.
ReplyDeleteI did observe things to be very works-based.
DeleteAll the things we had to do - all the Bible readings, church services, discipleship meetings, Bible verses we were to recite / memorize - those were the bare minimum types of things we had to do to allegedly maintain God's favor on our lives. We had to do at least that much for God to maybe view us with favor, such that we'd see revival.
I.... wow. I got caught up in legalism masquerading as alleged impending revival.
Was this really the case? I hope I'm wrong.
DeleteDeleted my comment? Interesting. Perhaps it was too biblically based for this blog...
ReplyDeleteHi Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteSorry. I don't know what happened with your comment, but I have it in my email alert. I will repost it. I appreciate all of the different views and comments. I hope it will add to the discussion:
I currently go to ACC. I've been here for only a few short months, so I speak with no authority about the HBC split or Jimmy before he was in his pastoral role. However I have encountered Jimmy and countless other leaders of ACC and I have to say I'm thoroughly impressed.
Maybe ACC is a "cult", or maybe they just look like one because other churches aren't even starring to fulfill their roles of spreading the gospel. This is the most spiritually alive, friendly and outreaching community I've ever encountered, or even heard of. It has changed my views on what a real church according to the Bible should look like, and I'm excited to see how I continue to grow.
Any church can be made a mockery of, any man can have his reputation tarnished and any movement can be labeled as "new age dangerous", but the body of Christ is the most viscious group of people I know and it breaks my heart. Maybe you disagree with antioch or maybe they hurt you, for that I'm truly sorry but I'll never know both sides of the argument. All I know is this church is genuinely changing lives, the lives of the lost all over the world. Their impact on the nations for a 3000 member church is unheard of in this day and age where believers are practically integrated into the world.
I'm excited to be apart of this movement that is rising up to a call that few others are participating in. Instead we just have blogs and websites setup to tear down a body of believers that, whether you feel are misguided or not, are at least trying to position themselves in the footsteps of Jesus.
If you disagree withe or ACC in general, I understand wholeheartedly, but this blog is shameful to your brothers and sisters that attend antioch who are finding God has called them to change the nations using ACC as a local and global missions catalyst. Everyone has flaws, but let's not be like Americas current media and only expound on those flaws...
Hey Anon,
ReplyDeleteI planned to post my name yet was having trouble with the account for this forum.From your post I picked up a few key elements. First you say you have only been going to ACC for a few months. You are on the emotional high. Emotion, emotion, emotion. You can only live on sugar for so long and then you will realize you need meat and there is none. Stay at ACC a while and then go into a church where the Bible is taught verse by verse and you will feel like a dying man who has just found a feast. ACC is based on "Apostolic vision" and signs and wonders theology. All the leaders are called "Apostolic" and they are type A movers and shakers ( accept maybe Danny Mulkey). If you are gifted pastorally your are "B team" bringing up the rear. That is a huge area where ACC devastates people. Newbies come in and try to fit in. Everyone is trying to be Jimmy. Those who are teachers or gifted pastorally will try to change to fit the mold. They become frustrated because they can't be the type A "apostle" and so they eventually leave, devastated and questioning any worth they have to God the Father. Those who are good actors may stay a while longer in a roll for which they are not gifted yet eventually they will leave, once again with the scars of the ACC " movement".
Yeah, sounds about right.
DeleteThat last post is dead on. WOW!!! You will have to,"Act outside yourself" to be apart there.
ReplyDeleteOkay, so I'm giving myself a name so I'm not confused with any of the other anonymous posters. Hope you like it.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with that December 6 post at 9:32 (so many of us are Anonymous now...) That is an apt analysis. VERY insightful. I would also add that some folks, who are neither A's nor B's are put into the B positions - also a disaster for all involved. I think that's what folks are really getting at when they are talking about young leadership. There, there are the C's (which stands for "Cash" - all the folks who are expected to cough up piles of money for the A's and B's to carry on their work, almost like it's their way of making up for not being called to a remote, war-torn village half-way around the world. These were the people heavily recruited when HBC and ACC split).
And as for the post that was deleted and reposted by Neill, and the response about that person being at the beginning of the experience, I agree with that, too. Just like with any cult-like group, be it Antioch, Amway or a time-share in a Florida swamp, you don't really know what you're getting into until you move up in the power structure. [Any Amway salespeople, time-share owners, Floridians or swamp-dwellers, please accept my sincere apologies...] The people on the fringes, the people you first meet, usually are very kind, loving, sincere people. I don't think most of them know what they are into - you don't find out until you are a LG leader, or maybe even a section leader. It takes years.
Also, you have to remember that most of the statistics regarding souls saved, healings, etc., are generated by Antioch. And I think we'd all agree that we wouldn't necessarily trust a product's producers regarding the efficacy of their product - like, oh, I don't know, Toyota?
And as for this blog being shameful, I can tell from your post that, even if you haven't been at Antioch long, you have swallowed the rhetoric hook, line and sinker (using the exact same phrases Jimmy has been using since the 80s). This blog is not shameful - calling dissent shameful is part of the problem. And, I would hazard a guess that dealing with dissent is even discussed from the pulpit and in Lifegroup (it was for the nine years I was involved). Both of those things are red flags.
Reposted Anon:
ReplyDeleteI agree with what was said in reply to you already about the emotional high. My first year at antioch, I was asked some questions by my then-roommate that were beating around the same bush that others are hammering here. I replied to him much like you replied: the people at antioch are nice and friendly (which is still generally true), they love Jesus (which I now replace with they love the Jesus they know... which isn't very accurate to who Jesus is), etc. in the 2.5 years since I began attending Antioch, I have learned how to take off the rose-colored glasses caused by friendliness and lots of emotion. I daresay that in time, you will, too.
Thank you for all these insightful comments. My husband and I recently left Antioch after attending for 10 years. I have felt so many of the same feelings expressed here.
ReplyDeleteI'm slowly transitioning from anger to ah-ha and duh moments of realization. Please keep us in your prayers since we are having a very hard time wanting to even go to any church ever again. Our Faith in God hasn't changed, if anything, we've grown closer as a family with our devotions and prayer life. We are just leery and not trusting at this point.
Anyway, this blog was like an Oasis for me!
Please keep it online.
I left ACC about 3 1/2 years ago when I moved away after graduating from Baylor after attending for four years. I tried to stick with what ACC had taught me but eventually became disillusioned with it and decided that it was best for me to move on. I identified so much with your post. Since leaving ACC, I find that I have trouble trusting churches and Christians in general (despite the fact that I am still a Christian.) I find myself shying away from anything that remotely resembles ACC, which has unfortunately included things like prayer and spending time reading my Bible. I know that may not make a lot of sense to some of you, but it's true. I don't know how to approach having a relationship with God anymore. I don't know how to pray without it feeling superficial or needy. And furthermore, I often don't pray because I don't feel like I'm "worthy" to ask God for anything. Even though I've left ACC behind, I still catch myself thinking that ACC members are the "good" Christians and that the rest of us - especially me - are somehow less. Is anyone else struggling with this? Any tips on how to get through/past this?
DeleteSorry, this post definitely took a different turn than I initially intended! And Chilled Zealot, I know it's been a while since you've posted, but thank you so much for this blog. It's been so comforting to me to find that there are other people going through the same thing.
Anon of 2-4-15 / 6:37 PM, I know EXACTLY what you mean!!!!!!!! I struggle with the same things. Don't be afraid. I think Chilled Zealot left this blog up, knowing that in time, more of us would benefit from it. I think you are using it exactly the way CZ intended this blog to be used.
DeleteAnon, I wish I had answers for you! I don't yet; but if I do and I find your comment again, I hope to post what I've learned.
What little I have learned is that what we are going through is consistent with withdrawal effects from cults and spiritually-abusive groups. So, it may benefit you to join an online forum or Facebook group devoted to spiritual abuse recovery. I also recommend learning about spiritual abuse, cults and the recovery process, regardless as to whether or not you view Antioch as a cult. For a long, long, LONG time, I did not view Antioch as a cult.... but then I checked Antioch's teachings and practices against cult experts' characteristics of cults, and it became increasingly difficult for me to refute the cult claim as I gave it more thought. So help me God.
Anyway, I have found it helpful to trust that God loves us, and that it is ok for us to rest. In fact, Jesus came to give us rest -- an easy yoke, a light burden (Matthew 11:28-30). So this whole thing of all these expectations? They're not from God. The Lord knows that we aren't perfect, and that's ok. There is no condemnation for us in Christ (Romans 8:1). I am well aware that most Christians will seem to treat us otherwise and don't even realize it. Perhaps some of it is our perspective, but we've been so beaten down for so long that it will take a lot of genuine love, respect, encouragement, fellowship and empowerment to help us heal -- the kind many Christians don't grant toward one another normally, let alone folks like us. It is unfortunate. I don't know what to do about that. But for now, for us, perhaps rest in the Lord is enough. He loves us. May He take care of us and provide healthy, healing Christian fellowship for us soon enough.
I hear you, Anon. I'm there, too.
Update: My faith isn't restored to Antioch standards; but I have, for now, found a rhythm that works for me. We go to church; I disagree a lot with the people there; but I still believe in Jesus and try to be generous and help out where I can.
DeleteI'm coming to trust the Lord a little more, too.
It's a start. = )
This last post telling isn't it? I feel the same way. I want to go to Church yet the burn out is still too great. We are coming up on 2 years away from Antioch. The new building plans seem to stir it all again. "We do not desire to be a mega church". How many times have we heard that? A 5000 seat auditorium constitutes a mega church don't you think? antioch was a mega church when the college returned the first year. 1100, that was the count. antioch started with 500, an enviable number for any new church. If we could somehow harness the emotional energy that will be produced in that building we could power the city. If the couple from the previous post would like to contact me my email address is nachofuego3d@gmail.com
ReplyDeleteOf course as soon as you email me my cover will be blown, and as I have said in previous posts, I have nothing to lose.
Oh this is too much... "They love Jesus (which I now replace with they love the Jesus they know... which isn't very accurate to who Jesus is), etc."
ReplyDeleteREALLY?! You can't expect anyone to take what you say seriously when you sling crazy accusations like that! It's one thing to seek answers to questions about personal experiences, and it's quite another to say flat out ugly things. No church is perfect. The sermons at ACC don't approach the scriptures line by line, that's true, but they are not void of truth! The GOSPEL OF JESUS is preached EVERY Sunday, which is more than you can say for MANY churches in the US. There is nothing fluffy preached from the pulpit. Oh man I could go on and on! I just can NOT believe some of the trash I'm reading here. Yes I said it, TRASH. If you've been hurt, I'm truly sorry because I know that happens often and in pretty much every church if you stay long enough. I have yet to be part of a church that didn't have serious challenges and mistakes to walk through at some point. We're human! We miss God at times. It happens. And no one will disagree that there are MANY types of churches out there, and ACC will simply not be a great match for everyone. Praise the Lord for the other awesome churches in Waco! But you're doing yourself and the body of Christ a HUGE disservice if you bounce from church to church, bashing them as you go. This is not a shopping trip! You're not looking for the best sale!
I was part of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church for many years, and they say "In essentials, unity... in non-essentials, liberty... and in all things, charity."
The core of ACC, the essentials, are right on track. If you don't agree with the non-essentials, then by all means find a church that is a better match for you. But for the sake of the kingdom and the unity of the church, don't create a church bashing blog! PLEASE be charitable. Many posts and comments are beyond judgmental.
Anon, I WANTED to leave Antioch when I found out it was no bueno for me. I was NOT ALLOWED to leave on good terms. One of my Lifegroup Leaders used guilt-tripping / a fear tactic to keep me in, claiming that I would be "rebelling against God" if I left Antioch for another church in Waco. (My leader had control issues.)
DeleteYour leadership tended to side with my leader rather than me, even when I would try to stand up to her abuse. So, they were of limited help to me. Mostly, I just had to suffer through my time at Antioch.
I have not really found this problem to be as pervasive in any healthy church.
I had no choice but to find a blog like this and then go on my own journey, trying to research and blog as I went, because for years and years in my recovery process, no church or mental health worker was helping me heal properly. No one seemed to understand what I was going through or what I needed to heal. I was most likely misdiagnosed.
So, I went more than a decade with pretty much no healing.
This blog was a blessing and huge catalyst in my healing process.
Anon, what floors me is that you seem to forget that spiritual abuse was a real deal in both the Old and New Testaments.
DeletePaul and other apostolic workers had to work on addressing false teachers and false teachings that were harming early church congregations. They discussed these issues openly - very publicly in the Church - even going so far as to name names at times, such as Diotrephes, the Nicolaitans and the circumcision group.
Our Lord Jesus Christ also had some very public, choice words for the leaders of his day - particularly the religious leaders who were not taking good care of the people. Ezekiel 34 reads similarly.
Honestly, reading through your response.... I could not believe how strongly you sought to discredit us.
That is rude.
I am glad that you have not suffered as we have - praise God!; but your lack of compassion for us - holy cow!
To be blunt, you come across as sounding very arrogant and rather judgmental - lacking in compassion toward those whom Antioch has harmed.
I hope that your views are not all that representative of Antioch these days.
Y'know, Anon, I think the Lord may be reminding me: some of us used to be where you were when you wrote what you did. I suppose that I should keep that in mind, too.
DeleteDear April 12 poster - why are you here. This is not judgmental...it is freedom. No one, but the odd comment, is harsh or critical. We feel things in the midst of a church that we have loved or do love dearly, the systems and the people have mesmerized us. Yet, we feel confusing feelings. We are told what to think and what constantly repeated scriptures mean from boys that were promoted at young ages for their zeal, charisma and "humility". It does matter. When you say the gospel is preached every Sunday, but it's not the point if there is so little concern for individual thought and the freedom to talk about what we think or feel. As you say we're imperfect, but you don't want to let us wrestle with the very thoughts and feelings God gave us. Before Pilate Jesus says I came to give you Truth. He left Heaven to bring the TRuth !!! Are you visiting this site to not let us talk about truth openly in our attempt to figure out what happened to the lives that Christ gave us while we went on a journey at ACC.? I am confused. I am adult. I loved and followed my pastor. But where is the rest of God's word, why is exposition of it bad? Why does the relationship disappear if
ReplyDeleteI am not doing the same LG as my discipler? Was it a relationship or was I part of their task?
My dearest April 12 blogger, listen to the heart cry of Nacho Fuego "This last post telling isn't it? I feel the same way. I want to go to Church yet the burn out is still too great. We are coming up on 2 years away from Antioch. " CAN YOU NOT SEE this is about the essentials. Please April 12th read January and February, read the reason for the blog....think, feel
ReplyDeleteWhen you have bad fruit, the essentials are not being followed effectively. In this case, I would argue that the second greatest commandment - loving one's neighbor as oneself - has not been followed that well.
DeleteYou can have the outward appearance of doing and saying all the right things; but the weightier matters of the law remain justice, mercy and faithfulness (Matthew 23: 23-24).
We dissenters have often been denied justice and mercy. If we count Antioch friendships / relationships, then there's often been a lack of faithfulness, too.
The truth I know in detail is that the separation between Highland and Antioch was done with love and they continue to have a good relationship. I also have experienced the encouragement to worship in both Spirit and in Truth at Antioch. Sermons have encouraged to have both in your life/worship. BUT IF I AM WRONG - I still know that wounds from a church are often detrimental to one's walk with the Lord. Sometimes the church (any church) does not live out their role as the perfect bride of Christ. Or should I say most of the time. HOWEVER, what is their heart? I have found good hearts after God's will at Antioch and I'm sure the opposite is there as well. But dissension in the church is a scheme of the enemy. Stay in the church and encourage those who have lost their way or leave in peace and pray they find it. Bitterness against a fallen and sinful people who also happen to love Jesus is only damaging to your own relationship with Jesus. It is good to be like the Bereans and check a church to confirm that it is following the truth of God's word, but to hang around and point out their flaws is fruitless and encourages dissent. I believe Jesus weeps when His children speak badly against each other but delights when we honor those who are undeserving. I pray you find peace over wounds you have received from the church and can just let Jesus turn them into scars that no longer hurt. Love!
ReplyDeleteOk, Anon, so you have your beliefs about how we should act, and I have mine.
DeleteHonestly, I'm on here right now because I was told that all my comments would be disappearing around April of this year (2019). So, I wanted to add in some final remarks, archive a copy, and move on with my life.
Why I would want to do this is not anything you need to understand. You can continue to view me as bitter. That's fine. I don't need your approval on my life, character or behavior.
My work here is for those who will continue to need to heal from Antioch after my comments may allegedly disappear.
Now, regarding Antioch's split from Highland: I did actually reach out to Highland on this issue. The response I got allegedly from one of the pastors who was there for the split was that Seibert & Co. just wanted to do something different from what the leadership at Highland had in mind.
DeleteAs I recall, I think the issue was that Seibert & Co. - the Antioch-Highland crowd - wanted to have everyone in Lifegroups / in one-on-one accountability - something like that - whereas the leadership at Highland may have wanted to keep things a little bit more open-ended.
I actually favor keeping things more open-ended. Antioch's choice to focus on one way of doing things appears to have resulted in folks like Seibert becoming kinda closed-minded in interpretation of Scripture.
I can understand having a firm grasp of Scripture; but that's not what I'm talking about here. No, what I'm talking about is Seibert & Co. seemingly viewing their own interpretation of Scripture as the only truly acceptable interpretation.
That is my concern.
I have approached Antioch, seeking to speak with Seibert, but was told that I was not allowed to speak with him, so I am unable to express my concerns or get clarification, in the event I may be in error on some point.
But frankly, Anon, I find the tone of your response to be condescending, not loving. I mean, you are kinda lecturing us or playing the "holier-than-thou" card by coming across as if we are worse off than you. I don't appreciate that attitude.
DeleteI would also point out that you are the one insinuating that we are "hanging out and pointing out their flaws". Isn't that an implied accusation against folks like me?
It takes two to tango. You want to accuse use of dissent, fine. Yep, we are guilty. It happens in the church when people disagree.
But honestly, what does dissention say about those of you in the church? Because it is not normal for a church to have a cohort of (ex-)members alleging abuse or mistreatment.
Dissention does not exist in a vaccuum. It results from relational breakdowns and doctrinal differences - both of which have been a problem at Antioch, as has been the difficulty some of us have faced in having actually tried to have reconciled - only to fail, when we discover that the doctrinal differences are too great to rectify.
*us, not use - and I suppose reconcile, rather than rectify. My bad.
DeleteI cannot believe I’m actually going to give this blog any of my time. Over the years a few things about it have increasingly bothered me, so I’m going to dedicate a brief about of time and space to expose the weakness of this blog. I am a Baylor professor and a ten year Antioch Community Church member. My motive is to alleviate the fears of people whose family members attend this church.
ReplyDeleteFirst, anytime any group calls its members to radical obedience, it’s going to be dubbed cult-like. What Antioch does well, and what other churches could stand to learn, is that it asks the congregation to radically, wholly, and completely be obedient to scripture and to what the Lord is speaking. The emphasis placed on spiritual obedience and authority is twofold. First, this church wants to bring God glory in all that it does. Second, this church wants people to experience God’s best, His absolute holiness all the days of their life. Really, the relationship between church and body is not much different than that of father and child. And if you have a sound theological understanding of New Testament churches, you know how biblical this model is.
Second, let us consider some of the people associated with this church, and then ask ourselves whether or not we trust their character. World-renowned speakers such as Max Lucado, Christine Cain, Floyd McClung, and even President of Baylor, Judge Ken Starr, have all graced Antioch’s pulpit. The children of respectable Christian leaders like Max Lucado, Steven Curtis Chapman, and Beth Moore, have attended ACC. Popular Christian artists like Kari Jobe, Shane and Shane, Phil Whickham, and even Chris Tomlin have relationships here. It’s difficult to believe that all of these respected, influential Christian leaders were duped by ACC.
Third, why has little been said about how much this church does for the Waco community and the world? The leadership intentionally planted in the most crime ridden part of Waco. They built homes for themselves and community members. Since their establishment, the crime rate has exponentially decreased. If I am not mistaken, 10% of all the church’s tithe goes directly into the Waco community. For instance, when Waco isd cut school breakfast from their budget, ACC picked up the tab. And to what world disaster has ACC not humbly offered their services? They have built villages in Sri Lanka and Haiti; they organized a medical and supply team after Katrina hit New Orleans, and they did the same for Japan. Every ACC church plant, with which I am familiar, walks out in similar values.
Fourth, and lastly, we would be foolish not to ask: who is espousing such hurtful rhetoric? The truth is, we don’t know. This blogger remains anonymous. I would imagine it’s difficult for any discerning person to trust this male(?) female(? )who hides behind anonymity. What clout, what right does this person have to attack such a church so highly esteemed by tens of thousands? Really, friends, we should take little credence in this blog. Instead, I find myself extending grace to someone who had an unfortunate experience and allowed him or herself to get bitter rather than better.
Hey anonymous professor. What is your name? Your eloquence is impressive, but I find your arguments lacking because you are unwilling to stand up for this church in the way that you say others have done. Give yourself another ten years, get on staff, become a cog, and your ideals will be shattered. I wish this were inflammatory, bitter speak, but I am not one ounce of bitter. I do, however, wish to offer help to those who have struggled with losing themselves in ACC. I did, for a time. Perhaps your mind and will are sharper, stronger than the average bear, you may be an exception. However, I urge you to look deeper, or at least be willing to hear about others' stories. Good luck to you. I hope you keep your faith and personal identity. You have a shot as a mentally mature, fully formed adult. I cannot say the same for young people struggling to find their identities.
ReplyDeleteResplendentprism - Thanks for pointing this out. Also, mature ppl don't give complete obedience to scripture or what " the Lord says" I have seen too many manipulative prophecies and Jesus disobeyed scripture a lot in the way that mankind had defined it. With the King of Glory living inside - the reason God gave us and the traditions of all of Christianity to look at and evaluate - WE MUST THINK FOR OURSELVES ..again with the King inside. The immature and easily lead often join Antioch - so they can be lead. Perhaps for the very weak this is an improvement over early family of Origin issues - but because you no longer exist if you leave, shouldn't read any church fathers or mothers , have outside mentors, stay close to anybody not following there plans exactly... you can't do that without being ignored !!! which hurts humans worse than pain itself ...
DeleteResplendentprism, thanks for your response to the professor. It is true he did not have the boldness to give his own name. Further, he does not realize that this blog is an oasis for people who are hurting so badly and who, because of Antioch's spiritual beliefs, cannot be healed within their own communities there.
ReplyDeleteI am glad for you, professor, that you are strong, but don't cut off the hope of the wounded. As for me, a family member of AMI missionaries, you have not alleviated any of my fears for my loved ones who attend this church. I myself have questioned how so many big-name Christian personalities can support ACC and speak there. It boggles the mind. But those same big-name speakers don't live where the "little people" live in Antioch. They don't sit in meetings where they are publicly berated. They have no way of knowing the many layers of Antioch unless they have experienced it.
Listen to the cries of those who are hurting and are brave enough to tell the truth. Stand up for those who are constantly shamed by the same kind of grandiose rhetoric that you are using. My guess is that you can't. You can't see or feel the kind of pain we are talking about on this blog. But it is there. And Jesus will not snuff out a smoldering wick or break a bruised reed.
Amen Mom - we lost our lives there for a while, really screwed up lording over other stuff - wounding prevalent
DeleteYup. It was a problem.
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