There have been some great comments on the blog so far, most of them on the previous post “Searching For Answers”. I am glad that this has been a small outlet for people that have felt the way I have over the years. CheekyMonkey had a great idea of identifying yourself with an alias so it is easier to understand who is saying what. Here are some comments that have really resonated with me because they were my experience. Thanks.
“I was even "friends" with many of the higher-ups. When I left (I moved away, but I had been gradually weaning myself off for half a year or so), I felt almost abandoned by those who I thought were friends.”
“I don't wish to speak negatively about ACC. I actually think (and maybe this is just faith in the non-religious meaning of the word) that many people associated with ACC truly believe in what they preach and really are good people at heart.”
“Many people you have come to know as friends, people you trust in and people you look up to probably won’t understand why you are pulling away. One of the administration (who I think is no longer there) asked, upon me telling her I was transferring to another school, how I was going to remain faithful (in my opinion, she was implying that leaving ACC was in effect a renunciation of my faith).”
“But there was so much hero worship at the lifegroup level. I mean, there were people who stood in awe at the fact that I talked to several high-profile individuals in the church on a regular basis. It was unsettling for me and created an odd dynamic between me and my friends.”
“Spreading Christ's love does not require the sounding of a trumpet from a mountaintop in some exotic land for all the world to hear. It is enough to truly connect with one person in pain and offer them some hope. “
“To know Jimmy better you have to understand his mentor, Robert Ewing. If you do a search on him you may find some interesting information.(Salt Sister). “ [Comment from ChilledZealot – Thanks for pointing this out. Jimmy used to talk about Robert Ewing and how it impacted him. This further confirmed my research that the Latter Rain Movement heavily influenced Antioch’s core philosophy.]
“The last time I looked the Church in the U.S. wasn't being executed. Now maybe we are a little late to get in line for Chuy's, that's only if you go to the late service, but no death, no torture, and no imprisonment. So the plan that this little Chinese couple was given by God, cannot be translated into a worldwide movement by pasty white College kids that have never paid taxes other than the sales tax on their American Eagle skinny jeans, and have only seen persecution on CNN.”
My guide for life used to be, "What would Jimmy do?" "How would Jimmy respond?"
“When HBC wouldn't do it he said he'd leave and take half the church with him. HBC decided it would be bad for the city, for the people and honestly, bad for their reputation (can you say "Don Crossland"?) for there to be such an ugly split, so they agreed to call it a "plant" and even gave ACC a chunk of change in seed money. “
“Every person I've ever talked to who has come out of the ACC thing though has blamed themselves for it on some level - usually blaming the organization, the leaders, etc. dead last. "I wasn't spiritual/discerning/faithful/dedicated/fill-in-the-blank enough" - and blaming one's self when mistreated by others is a very co-dependent mindset.”
“I mean, how can two college-age kids or just-out-of-college, not married to each other, not even necessarily legal to vote, kids be a covering one for the other?”
“All the leaders are called "Apostolic" and they are type A movers and shakers ( accept maybe Danny Mulkey). If you are gifted pastorally your are "B team" bringing up the rear. That is a huge area where ACC devastates people. Newbies come in and try to fit in. Everyone is trying to be Jimmy. Those who are teachers or gifted pastorally will try to change to fit the mold. They become frustrated because they can't be the type A "apostle" and so they eventually leave, devastated and questioning any worth they have to God the Father. “
“There, there are the C's (which stands for "Cash" - all the folks who are expected to cough up piles of money for the A's and B's to carry on their work…”
"I was so sincere and I so believed that all those hours of relationship building meant something, would mean something. And all I have to show for it is one friend -and we were never in an accountability group or discipleship group or anything. We were just plain old friends. The people from my discipleship groups? Never had time for me once we'd all moved on and up. One eventually became a zone pastor and after a long period of not returning calls actually emailed to ask for a schedule of all my open two-hour time slots in the next two weeks."
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CZ,
ReplyDeleteThank YOU for putting this blog out there and keeping it up. Part of the recovery process from any abusive experience is having a place to talk about your feelings, and even more importantly, having those feelings validated - ie having another person say, "I understand how you would feel that way" or, if possible, "I felt that way too." Your last blog post really did that for me - quotations 9, 10, 11, 13 and 14 were all things I had written. Up til now, even after talking with three others who I know well, hearing and sharing stories and getting validation, I've still sometimes thought, "Maybe we were the only ones." Thanks for providing a forum for people to speak out.
Always a,
CheekyMonkey
From Martha Careful
ReplyDeleteThank you, CZ, Cheeky, Neill Morris and the sundry Anons out there. When I left ACC two years ago I thought my family and I were the only ones who didn't think ACC was the best thing since sliced bread. We didn't know the "phraseology" at the time yet we knew ACC was changing and not for the better. We had never heard of the Emergent Church, the social gospel, the purpose driven church, Christian mystics,et al. We were just wounded and hurting Christians who went to the internet one day to see if there was a name to what we were experiencing. We were shocked by what we read and how it related to what was taking place at ACC. So now the shift at ACC made more sense yet was still sad and troubling. We knew it was right to leave yet we didn't know what to do. My heart felt like it was torn into a thousand tiny pieces and thrown on the ground. When we left ACC I began to listen to podcasts of solid Christian teachers and realized I had been in the Antioch system so long I didn't know what the true gospel was anymore. There was so much legalism there that the gospel must be Jesus plus life group plus prayer room plus prayer shield plus mission trip plus corporate fast plus one on one discipleship.........It couldn't just be grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, could it? Praise God it is and I am thankful that I now know that deep within my soul. One thing I wanted to share about evangelism. Jimmy used to say that he wasn't interested in the "pie in the sky by and by" he was interested in the here and now and what Jesus was doing on the earth. So the subjects of heaven and hell were not high up on the sermon list. Since I have been studying and learning what the Bible says about heaven and about hell my desire to evangelize is greater than at any time in my life.This is eternity we are talking about not just a better life on this earth. When I was just thinking about the here and now it seemed that the evangelical emphasis was on me. Did I pray and God show me a lady with blond hair and a red tshirt whose name started with an S to go witness to? I never had those moments. I wanted to share Jesus yet the focus was on my testimony. I really didn't want to talk about me. And the whole thing of "Jesus loves you and has a good plan for your life". There's nothing about repentance. That's huge!!!!! It seemed that though we were told people were getting "saved" I wonder how many true repentant conversions took place. What happened to those who's
lives didn't seem so good after they prayed the prayer? Just my thoughts. I thank my Lord for forgiveness and healing.
I am curious about this "shift" Martha and others have referred to. I got out of ACC at the split from HBC - but some of the things in Martha's list of things since the shift were there long before two years ago like purpose driven church, the faith plus works (and endless meetings), the corporate fasting and the one on one discipleship. Could someone who went with ACC instead of HBC at the split maybe shed some light on this? I'd really like to understand.
ReplyDeleteEver your,
CheekyMonkey
Hi, This e-mail was sent to Jimmy. I am breaking up into several parts. The reply will be last.
ReplyDeleteSent: Monday, January 19, 2009 8:26 PM
To: Jimmy Seibert
Sunday was a very interesting day for me. I went to the 8:30 service, found a seat, and found myself in a familiar place. There was the worship team, singing beautiful upbeat songs. It was a blessing to see Brad Almond playing lead guitar. It is always refreshing to see someone in the band playing something other than the banging gong of rhythm. I saw the Vision 20 ad on the screen and knew that we were going to get to hear the vision. I have some reserved excitement about the whole process, having been involved in a breakout group from the original “Spheres”. I was even more energized by the opportunity to be a part of the IGNITE Church Planting Conference. It was humbling to be in a place with leaders again. I was encouraged to hear the vision, and immediately began to think of how it would work with the ministry ideas I have, and that I am involved with already. Once we got into the works of it all I began to notice a subtle shift in atmosphere at my table. After one session a pastor at the table asked me if I thought it seemed to be a mechanism, rather than a movement. I did have that very thought. Later, in another session another pastor and his wife said it seemed overly structured, and rigid. There was that mechanism again. When we sat down with the ACC representative we started asking questions. So, being the inquisitive guy I am I asked how ACC was implementing the IGNITE material in our church. He said, “Hmmm, aaah, hmmm, well we have only begun to test it in one life group that meets at Jimmy’s house. We have had success overseas, and in our college groups, but aren’t quite sure how to get it started in the family groups.” Then the thought that ACC was selling an idea hit me. I realized we were literally selling a concept, a mechanism, and a product. During this same time period ACC has been preaching “Diversity”, and “Social Justice”. We have incorporated an afro-centric style choir, hired an Urban Pastor, filtered in Hip Hop dance routines, and the like, all to promote racial diversity. This all brings me back to Sunday. It was the culmination of Diversity and Vision 20/IGNITE, all rolled into one, with Martin Luther King Jr. and Barack Hussein Obama as the toppings. Martin Luther King once said, “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." Our nation has recently elected its first fully Marxist Communist President and this without judging the content of his character. No, we elected him solely on the color of his skin. This is not Dr. King’s dream, it is the converse. To say Barack Obama is African American is like saying that Gus Hunter is African American. Yes, he has dark skin, and he was raised by wealthy socialist white people. This is a historic event, and it is a national tragedy. There is absolutely nothing this man stands for that we could possibly embrace. His stance on abortion in worse than any President we have ever had. He voted to terminate the lives of infants born alive after an abortion, and we promoted this villain on the same day that we had a brochure advertizing a BBQ fundraiser for Care Net. Abortion is the #1 killer of African Americans, AND NO ONE SAID A THING ABOUT IT!!!!!!!
Part 2:
ReplyDeleteVision 20 is what God wants to do, yet there is something strangely familiar about its promotion. There is a lot of glitz, and glitter, allot of flash, and bang, yet it is all powder with no lead. It reminded me of New Life in Colorado Springs, or Highland under Don Crosland. I had the opportunity to speak to a black man who teaches the gospel at Greater Harvest COGIC in East Waco. We talked about Charisma with immorality, and zeal without knowledge. We discussed how people follow leaders, prophets, and evangelists who have charisma, yet are walking in sexual sin. He even went as far as to say these leaders, when laying hands on people, are imparting spirits, rather than The Spirit. I have had that same thought. He said they have a lot of young people with a lot of zeal. I said that Proverbs says that zeal without knowledge is not good. He immediately chimed in with, “and is like a city without walls”. Pro 25:28 He who has no rule over his own spirit is like a broken down city without a wall. Proverbs 19:2 It is not good to have zeal without knowledge, nor to be hasty and miss the way. In November I sent an email to Fred concerning the IGNITE proposal, and the planned men’s purity group saying, ‘If we try to implement the “Ignite” philosophy over the top of sexual immorality we will reproduce death. Purity proceeds power. Proverbs says “The adulterous man lacks judgment”. This lack of judgment affects every aspect of a man’s life. I believe it is why our church is not reproducing itself here in Waco. There is such a deception because of sexual sin that it has rendered our ministry impotent. Jesus said, “If a man looks at a woman, and lusts after her in his heart, he has already committed adultery”. 50%, or more, of the men in our church are committing adultery through internet pornography. Many will do, and are doing “the stuff” without repenting from this secret sin. They jump through hoops like trained monkeys hoping to attain freedom by being “Good Enough”. Legalism procreates legalism, which, in turn, produces a harvest of sexual immorality. It’s a vicious cycle. This return to purity is a precursor to the movement of God on the Horizon.’ Our church is built on the backs of passionate young people who have very little discernment, and even less knowledge. Seeing this coupled with a pandemic of sexual immorality leads me to shudder at the thought of forging on with Vision 20. We are literally building a city with no walls. It gives me cause to wonder if some of our senior leadership is walking in sexual impurity. I believe that everything the leadership has presented is what God wants to do, yet I believe we have the cart before the horse. Every move of God in the Old Testament was preceded by brokenness, and humility, with a crying out to God, “We are an unclean people, we are broken before you”. With this brokenness came an outpouring of the Spirit of God, and the release from captivity. There is only one time in Scripture that the people of God were keeping the laws, and statutes that they were occupied, and that is the time of Jesus’ birth, and ministry. When he came the people realized they were doing the stuff pretentiously, and fell before Christ in brokenness. That brokenness was spread though out Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the rest of the Roman Empire by men and women broken, and humble before the Lord. There was no mechanism; there was no glitz, no glory. Paul says to the Corinthians, “1 Corinthians 2 1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[a] 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.”
Part 3:
ReplyDeleteWhen Jack Locker died I did a Google search for his church. I wanted to know some of the history there. I found a blog dedicated specifically to the beginnings of that ministry under another man who was pastor before Robert Ewing’s father. This story spoke of an outpouring of God that ended with a diverse congregation in a time period, in a state, in a city, among a people that were predisposed to racial inequality. I believe you know that story. It was a move of God, not a mechanism. There was no flash, or bang, and it grew into a worldwide movement without media. I want to see God restore all oppressed people. Isaiah 58 is clear about that. The scriptures make no distinction about which those oppressed should be, and neither should we. You said we had about 12% minority attendance at Antioch. You apologized to the African American people, and asked them to be patient with us. We have a plan to increase those numbers to 20% over the next few years. Those are some pretty low expectations for the Living God. Actually because it’s not our expectation of God, it is a reflection of our dismal expectation of us. Num 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight. We don’t have the vision of God, on the contrary, we have the vision of depraved men.
Ezekiel 36 speaks directly to our current situation:
Eze 36:22-36 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. (23) And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. (24) I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. (25) I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. (26) And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. (27) And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (28) You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. (29) And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. (30) I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. (31) Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. (32) It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord GOD; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel. (33) "Thus says the Lord GOD: On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be rebuilt. (34) And the land that was desolate shall be tilled, instead of being the desolation that it was in the sight of all who passed by. (35) And they will say, 'This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden, and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.' (36) Then the nations that are left all around you shall know that I am the LORD; I have rebuilt the ruined places and replanted that which was desolate. I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it.
Part 4:
ReplyDeleteAfter the IGNITE Conference I was praying, and the Lord told me that what we do in secret he will bless. No glitz, no glitter, just doing the stuff in quiet submission. I was called into the woodwork, to be a net mender. I am a husband, father, friend, brother, Pastor, Mentor, Prophet, servant, and Warrior. I am in the woodwork catching the crumbs as the fall through the cracks. Not many are falling because the floor is so dirty it is preventing the sift. God is about to sweep the floor, and throw out the trash. Do you remember the dream I had that I sent to you from Colorado on your birthday? I walked up toward the stage. There was a young woman sitting close to where you sit, and she had a blanket that was covered with sticks, and leaves like it had been on the ground. I took the blanket, walked up on the stage popped the blanket and all the debris came off. The word of the Lord was, “I am about to pop the blanket. Everyone that is not knit into the blanket will be popped off.” I believe this is impending. I believe God is going to move in our midst, I just don’t think it is going to happen inside the current circumstances. It is the cry of my heart that we corporately walk in brokenness. Until we do there will be no Vision 20, IGNITE, or Diversity. There will just be pretense, and more off key singing, all to look diverse.
I am praying for this President. Because of my own sin I have not prayed for a President since Bush 41 in MC. I am praying that God will thwart every plan this man has to destroy this nation. That God will show his glory to the nations through America’s repentance. That the African American people will see Barack Obama for who he truly is, not what they thought he was. I am broken.
In Christ,
Nacho Fuego
Part 5: Jimmy's reply:
ReplyDeleteDear Nacho Fuego,
I am just getting back with you regarding your letter. Let me say how much I love and am thankful for you and want to be a support and a help to you. That has always been my heart towards you and your family and it will always stay that way. Nothing will change that.
First of all let me say that I don’t agree with you on some of the accusations I perceive that you are communicating. There isn’t a day that goes by that we are not walking with somebody through some kind of brokenness, praying for them, ministering to them and trying to help them through immorality issues, marriage, parenting and family issues, among a hundred other things.
Secondly our absolute commitment is to brokenness, humility, and the person and presence of Jesus no matter what the cost is.
Thirdly, I meet consistently with all of our staff and leaders. We have high accountability and standards for what we watch, what we read, what we are all about. The only offensive thing about what you have written is the implication or accusation that people in upper leadership in the church are in sexual sin. I walk with these men and women closely, I challenge them personally. I am also accountable across the board. There is nothing you cannot know about my life. That does not mean that any of us are not susceptible to sin, could not fall into sin given the right circumstances or right moment. That is why we walk in community and accountability, so that those temptations will not be part of our lives.
Ultimately Nacho, we are talking about it, dialoguing and discussing. More than that we are training counselors and trying to move forward. We would love for you to be a part of the process of helping. If it is in your heart to do that just let me know.
In His Strength and Love,
Jimmy
What I would like to point out about the response is, "First of all let me say that I don’t agree with you on some of the accusations I perceive that you are communicating.", and,"The only offensive thing about what you have written is the implication or accusation that people in upper leadership in the church are in sexual sin." I said, "It gives me cause to wonder if some of our senior leadership is walking in sexual impurity." The words, "I perceive" are used frequently at antioch when trying to dissuade disagreement with leadership. With a drivenness to push forward with Vision 20, and sexual immorality rampant, it made me wonder about their purity because of an apparent lack of judgement. The cause was greater than the circumstances. I sent another e-mail that received no response. If you would like to read it I will be glad to post it also.Cheeky Monkey, I think this answers your question about the shift. You see, antioch started what they called spheres of influence to gather information about how God wanted the church to move. Not long after that they started the social justice move which wasn't apart of the spheres meetings. I was apart of some of those meetings. I have friends that were apart of others. antioch completely abandoned the spheres and shifted socially left. It was devastating.
Nacho (nice handle btw)
ReplyDeleteReally the thing that strikes me about Jimmy’s response is that he says that it is all about dialogue and discussion. However, that is exactly what you were trying to do was dialogue and discuss by sending him the email, and the response you got was clearly defend, defend, defend. If you have a suggestion or concern to share with leadership that is in line with what they already think, then it is accepted. If not, they usually suggest why you are not walking with the Lord or are not hearing God, or need to pray more, etc. That you received no response on your second email shows how committed to dialogue they are.
Now about the concerns you raised with Jimmy, that there was not ENOUGH brokenness, purity, etc, etc. for revival to come to the church or for a movement to come – Wow. I do not share your view, which is fine. This blog is for people to share their dissenting thoughts and views, and you certainly don’t need my agreement in order to do that. One of the main things that I think screws believers up, is the over emphasis on “how you are not doing enough, so God is not going to pour out his Spirit” mentality. I think ACC definitely has that covered and there certainly didn’t need to be MORE emphasis on this. I agree very much with “Martha Careful” that it was refreshing to step away from all of the stuff you are supposed to be doing to facilitate Christ’s return (lifegroup, prayer group, accountability, etc.) and accept God’s grace.
-CZ
Hey CZ,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your comments. I wrote that e-mail 2 years ago. I think really what I was trying to say was, when God moves everyone is broken by the Holy Spirit, not just the chosen few. It is demonstrated in the scriptures over and over again for a reason. Not for some lofty goal for us to attain to, but for an example of what it looks like when God is moving,and what it doesn't look like. David tried to bring the Ark into Jerusalem on a cart, and a man died. I think that is exactly what is happening at antioch. They are trying to force a move of God. I definitely agree with you that there is a hyper focus on behavior. That is why they are equipping counselors. Where are the pastors? Where are the paracletes, the healers? At the time I was so angry I had to communicate. I am still angry, and still wounded, yet not as disabled by it all. I have, for some time, felt completely inadequate for ministry knowing God called me, equipped me, and is empowering me. It didn't make since. I was never good enough, it was always something new. This calling was way before antioch existed. From my days in the singles at Highland.Jimmy was still in college. People were coming to me with scary stuff so I began the journey. My wife told me that I may have needed to see what was going on at antioch so I could share now. This blog definitely presents the opportunity. God Bless.
Wow. I don't know how to respond to Nacho's enlightening post. Laughter comes first. Lots and lots of laughter. I just can't stop...
ReplyDeleteYou know, though, that shift was happening before ACC/HBC parted ways. There was one dear lady who was always pushing for more "black" music...as if white people singing gospel music would necessarily be appealing to anyone. (Other than Gaither fans...)
As I said then to that dear lady and I say again, I think that when people use a worship service as an advertisement something is really, really wrong. And the ways in which Nacho reports they are going about it? - ie an Afro-centric choir style (I'm a musician - that means no printed music, learned all by rote, lots of improvisation - and there's nothing necessarily wrong with that, but it does, as he notes, result in some SPECTACULARLY off-key singing in most cases) and [insert shudder here] HIP HOP DANCE ROUTINES? THAT is no laughing matter! PUHlease! Again, if there's any place that should be authentic, it should be church, and if a bunch of white folks are trying to do hip hop to attract a bunch of black folks, well, there's so much wrong with that... Please tell me they are not doing this in skin-tight black catsuits like Beyonce in "Single Ladies" (although, if things are still the same in the college department on the dating scene, that might not be a bad special music for ACC to consider...)
And finally, I'll go out on a limb (monkeys like to do that) and suggest that these things are quite possibly insulting to the very community they are supposedly trying to reach. I mean, if a black church was trying to attract white people by incorporating opera and two-stepping ushers wearing giant rodeo belt buckles, I for one would be insulted (after I finished laughing my guts out).
I mean, what's next? Are they going to have an after-service social hour with fried chicken, collard greens and watermelon? Talk about stereotypes! Gee whiz!
I'll stop now before I pee my pants.
VeryVeryCheekyMonkey
Is there a way to contact you via email or other method besides this blog? I have similar experiences and would like to discuss, but not in a public forum such as this one.
ReplyDeleteI just discovered this blog. Thanks for posting, Zealot. Such discussions seem not to have happened except in the proverbial back alleyways of the Baylor bubble. I apologize if this is "tl;dr" :-)
ReplyDeleteI write from an outside perspective. A number of my friends, include my former roommate, are/were very involved in the College Ministry at Antioch. From their accounts, and from my limited exposure to ACC culture, I have gleaned some very odd tidbits.
- Lifegroups tend to force community superficially. The first time I was invited to a lifegroup party, I did a splendid job of acting like I was enjoying myself and my company. The lifegroup itself didn't act so well. Now I'll say that college kids can't be expected to be a vulnerable and personal community, but this was surprisingly superficial. I left with the extremely depressed feeling of having been in the presence of a whole group that thought they had community when all they had was a shared experience of shallow inside jokes.
- Dating culture. Wow, where to start? Churches I had previously gone to had their awkward versions of dating - the so-called "church date," where you bring your date to church, hold hands chastely, and talk about Jesus. This whole rigamarole that is expected of enduring interrogations by a potential boyfriend/girlfriend's mentor prior to asking him/her out? This worked out very badly for a friend of mine.
- Dating culture part deux. I have a good friend who doesn't go to Antioch. His girlfriend, who attends and is in leadership, can't let anyone know they're dating or they'll look on them with disdain. Enough said.
- Anti-intellectualism. This is where I tack on the disclaimer that I'm not close enough to ACC to know what's being taught from the pulpit. But I see the way ACC members live and talk about their faith. Many of the college students have decided to replace difficult questions with pat answers and vagaries. The average Antioch experience has a lot of talk of joy and charisms. What about suffering? I have chronic pain conditions and depression. How does ACC discuss that? The missions approach has obvious issues. Does anyone bring that up? It seems that most of the responses to challenges to authority are fairly discreet and magisterial. And then, what about issues that are being wrestled with in other denominations (like my newly-found home, the Anglican Communion)? What about homosexuality? What about war? What about mental illness? If the focus on joy and gifts of the Spirit is forcing out the serious reckoning of difficult issues, it seems that ACC is Jacob expecting a blessing from the angel *before* wrestling him.
I finish with stating, for the record, that I came to Baylor a Baptist and (through an odd journey) came to find my home in the Episcopal Church. One of my aforementioned friends came to Baylor a Baptist and then went to Antioch (we joked that it was an odd dichotomy). My parish is made up very much of an older demographic - people who were there when that church was planted 45 years ago. It has had a turbulent history as well, but has often looked to the wisdom of elders and the tradition that bore them. It seems that myriad issues with Antioch come from a rebellious need to strike out on its own path, separate and perhaps even superior to other communities of Christians. What I found in my church wasn't a lifegroup, or a cell, or an emerging body of Christ. I found a family, the oldest form of community. Perhaps that organic and messy model is, despite (or because of) its perils and expense, is the ideal that ACC has foresworn.
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ReplyDeleteCZ, I hope you had good reason for deleting these posts. Thanks for keeping most of them up, regardless as to beliefs. = )
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ReplyDeleteI've posted a couple of times tonight. I also happen to be Canterbury Roommate's roommate and twice-mentioned friend. I need to get to sleep at this point. And I'm doing all this on a smartphone. So I'll save my long stuff for later.
ReplyDeleteI agree with others that I would love to see some more posts,
Also, CZ, I was wondering if there's a way other than the blog to contact you. Feel free to email me at nothingbuttheblood[at]gmail[dot]com. I don't check that email a whole bunch because its not my main one (and no one has it for my info, hence feeling comfortable putting it here)... but I'll try to check it a few times a week for the next couple of weeks or so.
Nacho Fuego has left a new comment on your post "Keep The Conversation Going":
ReplyDeleteThanks Canterbury Roommate's Friend for sharing that marvelous story. Having been with antioch since year 3 of Master's Commission (1988/89)I have watched this transmogrification transpire like a slow boiling pot that suddenly rolls all at once. I tend to be classified as aloof, not a team player, a free spirit, etc. My personality doesn't lend itself to "team sports" or " fraternal orders". I remember in the early days being in a men's leadership group. On one side of the room was Bianchi, Jimmy, Abshire, Sean Richmond, et al. On the other side were all the other men that had only been on one or two outreaches, yet were not given to fraternal extrovert tendencies (introverts & half introverts). I told my wife that I noticed this division of men. There was definitely an "A" team, and a "B" team, or even a "C" team. I lead the singles department at Highland for a brief time. I felt inadequate because the singles weren't performing like the College. I wanted to move the Singles into the College for the experience. When the singles did an outreach only the hurting dysfunctional people showed up. None of the extrovert "well adjusted" people would come. I soon realized that the "well adjusted" were more of a mess than the seemingly "sick" people. These maladjusted outcasts were actually the Army Of God. They knew they had problems, yet were there at my beckon call. Israel's first official King was an "A" team frat boy. He lead them to disaster. God used an obscure reject of a boy to defeat the Philistines. Extroverts are social butterflies that bounce from place to place, enjoy, and are energized by each event. Introverts are one on one people. They make the best Pastors because they take time to listen. They need time to recharge after an event. To get away to be with the Father, or just get away from that extrovert swirly. An introvert can only pretend to be an extrovert for so long before they burn out, fall away, or die. I am truly burned out. I am sick of faking it. I became a Christian in an NA meeting. My first months as a believer were one on one with God. Now I have come full circle. I truly desire to go to Church (not antioch), yet the thought of all that extrovert hooey gives me the willies, no matter what Church it is.It all seems so fake. "Hello Brother Nacho", "God Bless You Sister Cheeky". My name is not brother, and who prays in King James English anyway. Syrup is for pancakes, not Church. I need a hospital, not a gospel concert, or a hip hop show. Where did all the real Christians go. Sorry, I switched from antioch to Highland somewhere in there:) God bless you Brother CZ, sister Cheeky, and all the ant team kids (if the gender references are wrong please forgive me, its all so anonymous:,)
P.S.: There were times I wanted to confront, and send the scantily clad femme fatales home at antioch. Sexy is not a positive word in the Bible. It literally means: To entice sexual desire. The goods are a gift for your future husband. Keep em wrapped up till your honeymoon. Duh. Jesus don't wanna see your stuff, and neither do I.
Nacho Fuego Said:
ReplyDeleteThanks Canterbury Roommate's Friend for sharing that marvelous story. Having been with antioch since year 3 of Master's Commission (1988/89)I have watched this transmogrification transpire like a slow boiling pot that suddenly rolls all at once. I tend to be classified as aloof, not a team player, a free spirit, etc. My personality doesn't lend itself to "team sports" or " fraternal orders". I remember in the early days being in a men's leadership group. On one side of the room was Bianchi, Jimmy, Abshire, Sean Richmond, et al. On the other side were all the other men that had only been on one or two outreaches, yet were not given to fraternal extrovert tendencies (introverts & half introverts). I told my wife that I noticed this division of men. There was definitely an "A" team, and a "B" team, or even a "C" team. I lead the singles department at Highland for a brief time. I felt inadequate because the singles weren't performing like the College. I wanted to move the Singles into the College for the experience. When the singles did an outreach only the hurting dysfunctional people showed up. None of the extrovert "well adjusted" people would come. I soon realized that the "well adjusted" were more of a mess than the seemingly "sick" people. These maladjusted outcasts were actually the Army Of God. They knew they had problems, yet were there at my beckon call. Israel's first official King was an "A" team frat boy. He lead them to disaster. God used an obscure reject of a boy to defeat the Philistines. Extroverts are social butterflies that bounce from place to place, enjoy, and are energized by each event. Introverts are one on one people. They make the best Pastors because they take time to listen. They need time to recharge after an event. To get away to be with the Father, or just get away from that extrovert swirly. An introvert can only pretend to be an extrovert for so long before they burn out, fall away, or die. I am truly burned out. I am sick of faking it. I became a Christian in an NA meeting. My first months as a believer were one on one with God. Now I have come full circle. I truly desire to go to Church (not antioch), yet the thought of all that extrovert hooey gives me the willies, no matter what Church it is.It all seems so fake. "Hello Brother Nacho", "God Bless You Sister Cheeky". My name is not brother, and who prays in King James English anyway. Syrup is for pancakes, not Church. I need a hospital, not a gospel concert, or a hip hop show. Where did all the real Christians go. Sorry, I switched from antioch to Highland somewhere in there:) God bless you Brother CZ, sister Cheeky, and all the ant team kids (if the gender references are wrong please forgive me, its all so anonymous:,)
P.S.: There were times I wanted to confront, and send the scantily clad femme fatales home at antioch. Sexy is not a positive word in the Bible. It literally means: To entice sexual desire. The goods are a gift for your future husband. Keep em wrapped up till your honeymoon. Duh. Jesus don't wanna see your stuff, and neither do I.
Processing, but will weigh in with my earth-shatteringly profound thoughts soon. LOVED these recent posts - great insights and so much fodder for my new stand-up routine.
ReplyDeleteHugs and Squishes,
Sister Cheeky (yup, this one's a girl monkey)
Our ACC(US church plant) lectures, sermonizes and cajoles all females never to show anything. I know of one teenager whose discipler emotionally scared her as she was naturally modest. Such a contrast, but as long as we are controlling or being controlled it's still ACC !
ReplyDeletePS Jesus does love my stuff, he made my stuff. I get what you are saying but ya gotta use the Matthew 18 and go to the one offending(or have your wife, sister or female friend speak for you) ACC does not follow the word for correction that's why so many hurt.
ReplyDeleteDear Chilled,
ReplyDeleteI have been a reader of your blog for several months now and I am continually impressed by the scholarship exhibited in most all of the posts. I would like to address in more detail the issues revealed within this blog, but I have been waiting for you to update your entry to reflect the current year. As a former founding member and leader of acc I believe I can shed light on the deception that has become antioch.
Seeking HIS Truth in All Things,
Samuel Adams
Samuel Adams - I would be SO interested in your shedding of light. At the beginning of this set Chilled Zealot gave his e-mail. I will ask him to go 2011 and take the jump. Perhaps you could do the same. In addition, as our domestic ACC plant is losing members of long standing a lot right now - there is great need for what you both do.
ReplyDeleteFor now I must post anonymous
Just discovered this blog, totally by accident. I was involved at ACC just after it was started, and Highland before that, and have experienced things similar to many of the blogs and comments here. Helps to know that I'm not the only one. Yes, I've been to other churches, been on staff, been involved in other small groups, etc., and yes every church is imperfect. But ACC really does have it's own brand of ex-members out there who are hurt or lost in a very specific way that only others from ACC can understand. 10 years after leaving Waco, I still have scars. Growing up in the Methodist church, I was taught that they rotate their pastors so that the people will follow Jesus and not the pastor. I will just say that ACC obviously does not have this philosophy. If you are young, it's easy to become a follower of an enthusiastic speaker. One of two things happens: you either realize you are following one man's ideas about God's word, instead of the actual Bible, or you decide, maybe without realizing it, that this certain man's ideas are the ONLY interpretation. You become a follower of the man. You may lead others to follow that man and his teachings. Even if you seek the truth through prayer, you end up going to God with a skewed view of who He really is based on very biased teachings. I don't know; I guess everyone has a predetermined idea of God and interprets His word according to their own selfish desires. I mean, we are fleshly humans, not pure spirit. I left Waco for practical reasons (job, school), not because of the church. But even after a decade, there is real, lasting damage. My relationships with people and with God just seems somehow... skewed. I am still trying to recover. Thanks for this blog. At least I know I'm not alone. Oh, I wanted to include an experience that sticks out in my mind. I was in my early 20's when I lived in Waco but was not in college; I worked fulltime. So I mixed with the 20's, not so much the college groups. But once I tried out a Baylor small group, and raised my hand when asked if anyone wanted prayer. They began to try to "convert" me, even though I assured them I was already a Christian. I didn't need converting, I needed friends that gave a crap about me, the real me, not the painted-on perfect image I was expected to project. I had many, many "friends" at ACC, but I have never been so depressed and lonely in my life! -flowergrl
ReplyDeleteI cannot believe I’m actually going to give this blog any of my time. Over the years a few things about it have increasingly bothered me, so I’m going to dedicate a brief about of time and space to expose the weakness of this blog. I am a Baylor professor and a ten year Antioch Community Church member. My motive is to alleviate the fears of people whose family members attend this church.
ReplyDeleteFirst, anytime any group calls its members to radical obedience, it’s going to be dubbed cult-like. What Antioch does well, and what other churches could stand to learn, is that it asks the congregation to radically, wholly, and completely be obedient to scripture and to what the Lord is speaking. The emphasis placed on spiritual obedience and authority is twofold. First, this church wants to bring God glory in all that it does. Second, this church wants people to experience God’s best, His absolute holiness all the days of their life. Really, the relationship between church and body is not much different than that of father and child. And if you have a sound theological understanding of New Testament churches, you know how biblical this model is.
Second, let us consider some of the people associated with this church, and then ask ourselves whether or not we trust their character. World-renowned speakers such as Max Lucado, Christine Cain, Floyd McClung, and even President of Baylor, Judge Ken Starr, have all graced Antioch’s pulpit. The children of respectable Christian leaders like Max Lucado, Steven Curtis Chapman, and Beth Moore, have attended ACC. Popular Christian artists like Kari Jobe, Shane and Shane, Phil Whickham, and even Chris Tomlin have relationships here. It’s difficult to believe that all of these respected, influential Christian leaders were duped by ACC.
Third, why has little been said about how much this church does for the Waco community and the world? The leadership intentionally planted in the most crime ridden part of Waco. They built homes for themselves and community members. Since their establishment, the crime rate has exponentially decreased. If I am not mistaken, 10% of all the church’s tithe goes directly into the Waco community. For instance, when Waco isd cut school breakfast from their budget, ACC picked up the tab. And to what world disaster has ACC not humbly offered their services? They have built villages in Sri Lanka and Haiti; they organized a medical and supply team after Katrina hit New Orleans, and they did the same for Japan. Every ACC church plant, with which I am familiar, walks out in similar values.
Fourth, and lastly, we would be foolish not to ask: who is espousing such hurtful rhetoric? The truth is, we don’t know. This blogger remains anonymous. I would imagine it’s difficult for any discerning person to trust this male(?) female(? )who hides behind anonymity. What clout, what right does this person have to attack such a church so highly esteemed by tens of thousands? Really, friends, we should take little credence in this blog. Instead, I find myself extending grace to someone who had an unfortunate experience and allowed him or herself to get bitter rather than better.
You must know the "Church of Wells" Baylor/Antioch alumni. One of outcomes...
DeleteAnon Baylor Prof:
Delete1) Antioch does not completely obey the Scriptures. The leaders have frequently violated scriptural teaching regarding lording it over others / lording it over the flock. I noticed favoritism shown toward leaders and folks who could be made into leaders, even though the Bible is clear that favoritism is a sin. There was a lot of legalistic striving, too, and I was taught that Galatians 5:1 was primarily about my own sin - even though the context in Galatians is predominantly spiritual abuse. Continually being labeled "demonically-oppressed" and similarly when God did not heal me instantaneously, despite doing my best to fulfill the Steps to Freedom in Christ and the requirements of my leaders, was very hurtful - and I dare say seemed to contradict John 9, anyway. Whatever the case, the fruit in the lives of people like me as a result of involvement with Antioch was pretty rotten.
This is in addition to other areas of Scripture that Antioch interprets one way, that many other Christians might debate or interpret differently.
As for your claim that Antioch adheres to a very biblical New Testament model: that is a subject of debate, particularly due to the allegations of lording it over the flock and legalism.
Admittedly, I strongly suspect that we'd interpret the Scriptures differently, so any attempt at legitimate debate may be pointless, anyway.
2) Most of the people you mention probably have no idea about what goes on in one-on-one discipleship relationships at Antioch and likewise probably have very minimal knowledge of dynamics in Discipleship Houses and most Lifegroups, if these people have much of an idea at all. So, their endorsements don't mean much.
Delete3) This blog is intended to be understood in the larger context of folks already being familiar with the positive aspects at Antioch. It is a blog designed primarily for abused ex-Antiochers.
DeleteBut, if you want to be contentious about this: yes, Antioch has done some good in some contexts. For example, The Feast: a soup kitchen; support for addicts that may include one or more halfway houses; and the STARS reading program, among other initiatives.
Because I myself felt trafficked at Antioch - since I was not permitted to leave in good standing and felt deceived into becoming involved - I'm sorry, but I cannot recommend Antioch's UnBound anti-human trafficking ministry. I am concerned that the risk of undue influence through Antioch involvement may be inappropriately high for folks recovering from human trafficking.
Regarding the pastors building homes in the community: not everyone receives the same level of support at Antioch. Paid pastoral staff do alright, yes; but some if not many have had to raise support. This is not a problem, so long as unpaid staff members get their funding; but it becomes a problem when they don't.
In my case, I was not a staff member, but my involvement with Antioch played a major role in me ending up hospitalized and in need of longer-term care, including monthly supplies of expensive prescription drugs for several years afterward (which at the time was an indefinite period of time, possibly a lifelong need). Some folks in the church knew I was a broke Baylor student, and a couple folks at Antioch were aware that one of my Antioch leaders pressured me to disown my parents, which I did.
No one from Antioch paid a cent toward helping to offset the medical expenses that I incurred, that I would say was largely a result of my involvement with Antioch. (Thankfully, my parents took me back and paid everything insurance did not. But at first, I didn't know that I wasn't going to end up on the streets, since I was unable to work much at that time.)
Anyway, my point is that support that church members have received has been highly variable. I was on the bottom of the totem pole, so it does not surprise me that I did not receive the support I needed.
4) "Who is espousing such hurtful rhetoric?" Well, I don't know who Chilled Zealot is; but my name is Lynda Gruen. What's your's? = )
DeleteWhat "clout" or "right" do I have to "attack" Antioch?
Well, for one, the Bible's discussions of the gift of discernment, false teaching and spiritual abuse.
But if your concern is accusations against specific individuals, then
1 Timothy 5:19-21.
Multiple people have been coming forward, and I am here to bear witness, standing in agreement with other posters, to problems in the church and especially with the leadership. We have the scriptural authority to speak up because more than one of us can testify to the problems.
If you want to get more specific and say it must be related to one person, well, I and some others testify against Jimmy Seibert and Robert Herber - not that I want to - I don't - but because I feel a need to do so, because I believe that sometimes the things they have said and done have harmed others. I don't mean to say anything with regards to their characters, and I apologize where that would come across; however, I am concerned with some of their words and actions.
As for seeming to accuse members of Antioch, I used to be one. I know Antiochers are well-intended. When things go wrong, I have found it to be the result of ignorance, deception and the spreading of subtle falsehood, not really intentional sin. Even those who do sin are often repentant when they truly realize the harm they have often unwittingly done.
You are welcome to view me as bitter. All good. Have a nice day. = )
Specific concerns with Jimmy Seibert:
DeleteI am concerned that Seibert may have harmed us through psychological manipulation in some sermons.
I am concerned that his understanding of "demonic oppression" of Christians may have defamed the characters of some people.
I am concerned that Seibert may have an imbalanced understanding of spiritual authority, favoring human leaders to an unbiblical extreme.
I find that Seibert seems to have a bit of a totalistic way of viewing Scripture, doctrine and church practices that makes it difficult for people to reason with him when Christians who think differently than he does, approach him with concerns.
On Robert Herber:
DeleteIt pains me to write this, because I used to be a friend of Robert's family; however, I think that there is validity to the old Theophilus Athenaeum concerns first raised in Issue 1 of The Iconoclast, in 2004.
It grieves me that when I approached Herber around 2016 for clarification on the points brought up, that he still was unwilling to go on record publicly to clear things up. Even after all these years, he still seemed to me to view the concerns raised as personal attacks.
The tone used in the concerns raised was disrespectful - frankly, hurtful; but the concerns themselves, in my opinion, had a grain of truth - and were kinda more related to Antioch than Herber, anyway, I thought.
It also saddened me that Herber asked me to stop blogging my old dissident blog. I am of the opinion that it is not his place to discourage me from speaking up when I believe that there is no legitimate avenue for healing in the church. I tried to be respectful in disagreeing with him; but we did hit an impasse by and by.
If Herber would be a voice for healthy reform in the movement instead, I would be more willing to consider his request; but I have not yet found that to be the case.
I did also feel sorry for Herber - because he seemed kinda troubled by what had happened to me under his watch. I forgive him. The pain from my past is actually less painful now than the grief I feel for him in the guilt he seemed to be carrying from his role in what happened to me. Christ has forgiven him. So have I. There is no need for him to seem not to forgive himself for his role in what happened to me. He said he was sorry. I forgave and have moved on. God has provided for me. I am okay.
I do not wish to cause sorrow to an old friend. I miss my dear Brother.
But he is a pastor, and with that comes some responsibilities that I believe should be honored, for the sake of those he influences.
May God forgive me, as I do not mean to cause more sorrow or offense than necessary to advocate for those of us who were silenced.
I would love it if some day, the Lord would restore our friendship. But, if that is not to be the case, I understand. This is one of the hard things about leaving Antioch.
I look forward to the day that none of this be necessary.
Hey anonymous professor. What is your name? Your eloquence is impressive, but I find your arguments lacking because you are unwilling to stand up for this church in the way that you say others have done. Give yourself another ten years, get on staff, become a cog, and your ideals will be shattered. I wish this were inflammatory, bitter speak, but I am not one ounce of bitter. I do, however, wish to offer help to those who have struggled with losing themselves in ACC. I did, for a time. Perhaps your mind and will are sharper, stronger than the average bear, you may be an exception. However, I urge you to look deeper, or at least be willing to hear about others' stories. Good luck to you. I hope you keep your faith and personal identity. You have a shot as a mentally mature, fully formed adult. I cannot say the same for young people struggling to find their identities.
ReplyDeleteI remember when I left highland, a "non-sinner" (I had no definable sin they could point to when I left, which made it harder to peg me, dismiss me) I had no idea what the hell had just happened to me. I quit master's commission, got a christian therapist, and became friends with a catholic priest. He said it best: "where the fire burns hot, people get burned." I think the sin of ACC is not arrogance, they are humble. It is not hypocrisy, they practice what they preach. Their sin is a sin of ommission...ignorance. They don't know what they don't know. Robert Lifton give the 8 criteria for cultic groups. Google it. Do I know people who seem happy at ACC? sure. But I can name more people hurt by that church than any other church i have ever known. and I am not anonymous. My name is Pete Zimmerman. I graduated in 1993. dropped out of masters commission to get treated for anxiety/depression. how bad was master's commission for me in my time of need? to say it was terrible and destructive would be letting them off light. I don't hate them. I fear their ignoranct, naive pentecostalism. As a neo-pentecostal in some senses, I understand what they are trying to do. But their failures hurt people. alot. ALOT.
ReplyDeletehttp://wellspringretreat.org/ this is where I learned alot.
ReplyDelete"walking in brokeness" equals "I am already humbled so you can't critique me." I am finishing up my clinical pastoral education as a chaplain. It is so great to have actual, real spiritually mature, intellectually vibrant leaders who have modeled for me the self awareness and ability to move past self in a way so far above what I saw at ACC, which was incredibly naive and superficial. I saw the ACC version of humility. they wrestle with self like jacob and the angel. I am glad to be a part of a church tradition that is sane and healthy. I am astounded at how "hating one's self" and being negative about self at ACC was equated with humilty. I spent years in therapy learning to sort out my true self and heal myself so I could move PAST myself, to truly being focused...not on self. if you seek to destroy self, it will rule you. embrace yourself, and your flaws, and transcend the self/flaws. it is so nice to be a grown up human not a tormented pietist waging spiritual warfare and getting PTSD from it
ReplyDeleteFunny how it works out that way. I discovered the same thing after I left: by spending less time focusing on my shortcomings, I could focus instead on my relationships and the tasks that needed to get done.
DeleteIt had the effect of feeling as if a heavy burden had been lifted off of me, such that I could start to function again.
Oh yeah, and the whole "I'm humble / broken" / "I'm discipled by So-and-so, so I'm godly" mentality was problematic. You're right about that, Pete.
DeleteBut, here's the thing: it was false humility. It actually came across to me as subtly arrogant and argumentative, and as a result, somewhat divisive - standing in the way of healthy relationships.
I didn't really see legit good come from it. The outward appearance of good for a long while, sure; but legit good? Nope.