Hey Canterbury Roommates and Friends,
You can contact me at chilledzealot@gmail.com. You can tell I am often too slow to respond, but I will try. Thanks for sharing your experiences. I think a lot of people from ACC (I was one) would dismiss criticism in general, but especially from outsiders. They shouldn't! Some of the comments you made were right on the mark.
I really believe it is impossible to be friends or be in a relationship with anyone from ACC if you are not a part of ACC. This is not because leadership prohibits it like a weird secret society type thing. It is more that the "shared experience" you spoke of and common goal of building Christ's kingdom for Him demands so much freakin' energy. There is no time for hanging out unless it is for the spiritual reason of strengthening relationships in your lifegroup, section, etc. Relationships are so void of real meaning, but the weird thing is that when you are a part of it, you think it is so purposeful because that is what you are told all the time.
I have posted here before and others have left comments about how screwed up friendships are -- lots of forced relationships with people that you don't have a lot in common with -- and once you start to get out of the leadership structure, 90 percent of those friendships disappear.
As far as dating goes… wow, where to start. It is messed up. My wife has much more to say about it than I do, but one of these days I would like to do a post on it. I did not have to interview with her "mentor" but there was a lot of other strange dynamics within the church. I would be very wary of trying to date someone that is really involved at ACC, unless you are as equally committed to some strange teachings – and even then you will likely go through much more heartache than you expected.
I would suggest if you deal with depression and feel depressed every time you visit you should really, really, really try to limit your contact there. You feel depressed because you can't live up to legalistic, non-bibilical standards, but they are preached as "non legalistic" and "early church"-type-biblical revival inducing standars. You are being told “this is the way,” “all those other denominations are full of legalistic, dead teachings,” “we want you to experience Jesus,” “it’s easy to pray for an hour a day, evangelize to a few people each day, go to 4 or 5 meetings a week, etc. when you love Jesus and are doing it through the power of the Holy Spirit.” Oh yeah, “and if you have any illnesses, Jesus heals you, if you confess you sins (and all your family’s sins), and you believe enough, and you keep asking” etc.
So the conclusion is that when you have difficult questions, or you burn out of your endless meetings, or question if the friendships are what you envisioned, or you sit in church feeling numb and everyone is bouncing up and down in worship excitement, or you have a truly debilitating illness that no one understands that isn’t healed on Prayer Night --- wait for it --- IT’S YOUR FAULT. YOU DON’T LOVE JESUS. YOU DON’T HAVE ENOUGH FAITH. YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND GOD. Because the church is telling you it’s easy if you do it abiding in Jesus. The point of my blog was to try to highlight that ACC’s methodology, experience, values, or whatever you want to call it has very little to do with the character of God.
Unfortunately, Jimmy preaches and those that attend believe that they have found “the way” to follow Jesus. So when you have found the way, you have to share it, and if others don’t believe it then they have really missed something profound. This fosters a pride and elitist attitude that is hard to describe unless you are an outsider who feels it or an insider that quit. ACCers will never, ever believe that they are prideful in their faith. I did not realize I was, and I am sorry for it.
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ReplyDeleteI have been to churches that fit the description in this post, but that's not what I have seen in the year and half that I have been regularly attending ACC. My wife and I also regularly attend a family lifegroup and have not seen any of the things you describe there either. I have heard of occasional excesses among some of the college students, but that is frankly to be expected in any organization of college students. I wouldn't tell a person to avoid all fraternities in college just because most frats have a few people that get out of hand from time to time.
ReplyDeleteWhen we visited some younger lifegroups we did see a few people who were a little out of touch with reality, but most of the groups of "twenty somethings" we visited were fine. The family zone lifegroup that we are in now is a bunch of couples that love God deeply and seek him passionately, but also deal with diaper changing, job changing, and mortgages. What's interesting about this is that almost all of the people in my lifegroup (except my wife and I) went to ACC in college and they have been through the training schools, yet they are still not at all like the legalistic, non-Biblical characteristics you describe in your post.
It seems like you had a serious bad experience, please don't think I'm saying that you didn't; however, it really doesn't seem like your experience was shared by everyone there.
Experiences do vary.
DeleteYou are very fortunate that you were not one who ended up feeling controlled, maligned, trafficked or otherwise mistreated or abused.
Yes, I've known folks who have been blessed at Antioch and still serve with Antioch; but as the years have gone by, I have heard from a growing number who have felt mistreated in some way:
marginalized;
discriminated against;
pressured to change their beliefs / behaviors / personality / church affiliation (to Antioch's);
pressured to perform and / or stay in the church, when they didn't want to (does not happen to everyone, but there have been some allegations of this);
ended up confused, due to subtle psychological manipulation in some sermons / teachings (and probably practices at times, and abuse of Scripture and charismata by some leaders and disciplers);
accused of unrepentant sin / "demonic oppression", even after they've done everything the church has asked, but simply didn't get the alleged healing / deliverance...
those types of things.
In my own case, some members deceived me about Antioch's mentality, and I then had a leader who did not permit me to leave in good standing when I realized Antioch was not for me. So it felt, in a way, as if I were being trafficked, to be blunt - because a sufficient number of Antioch's leaders in my life were abusing their authority and exploiting my desire to follow God to keep me in a church group I did not want to be a part of. (I wanted to serve in a different church in Waco.)
I am not the only one who claims to have had this experience. I'm glad that multiple people have had positive experiences; but some have had some pretty lousy ones, too, and their experiences are just as valid, as long as they are telling the truth.
Seriously, what in the world? This post is ridiculous. I'm not sure why you felt so judged at ACC, but you have twisted this church beyond recognition! Jimmy and the staff love Jesus. They've experienced freedom in the presence of God and want everyone else to find freedom too - of course they do! I've never heard anything said in judgment, and we've been there for years now. God is using this body of believers to bring folks to Jesus, and while no one is perfect (and they are quick to point that out as well) they are doing their best to align their lives with Christ. Church is messy because we're imperfect people living in a rough place. Add in some spiritual warfare and things can really get ugly! But seriously, and entire blog to bash Antioch? I struggle to see your point, and after this post am really questioning your motives.
ReplyDeleteThis comment will likely be deleted so I guess I'm writing this more to you than anyone else who might read it... I feel righteous anger when reading your blog. Many of the people I've met have sacrificed A LOT for Jesus as they seek to make him alone their treasure, and you're slandering them. There are better ways to deal with your experience than smearing ACC via the internet. You claim to love the Lord... ask HIM whether or not you should be writing things like this about his followers.
Chilled Zealot should be posting this stuff - as long as it is true.
DeleteMany of us had no voice at Antioch and may never.
Meanwhile, Chilled Zealot's blog has been a source of comfort - and sometimes challenge - to some of us very much in need.
As for "said in judgment": actually, I've read I think two publications in which comments attributed to Jimmy Seibert claim that he views those of us who have struggled in his church as "demonically-oppressed" due to unrepentant sin. That's not exactly no judgment. In fact, in some cases, if Seibert did actually say that, it may be defamation of character if it turns out that Seibert was lying in some cases - probably even if he didn't realize he was lying.
DeleteI've tried to ask Seibert about this issue, but the church secretary told me I was not allowed to speak to Seibert to ask him.
But even without that, good grief, I lost track of how often we would refer to those who left as "lost" or a "bad influence" or something like that. It always seemed to be about discrediting those who left, to keep the rest of us from questioning things....
Never heard anything said in judgment.... wow, I would have liked to have known your Antioch. I didn't get that chance. The first year wasn't bad; but after that.... yeah, no.
Anyway, glad your version of Antioch was way better than the one I saw. Her dark side ain't pretty.
As for deleting comments, Anon: looks like Chilled Zealot let you all have your say.
I mean, well, we understand why you all would accuse us of sinning by bashing the church. We get that.
I guess we just didn't want to add to that sin by sinning against you pro-Antioch types the way you all have sinned against us: by working to silence us in your domain, and then by bullying us into silence in our own domain.
I'm sure there is truth to your story; but there is truth to our stories, too - and that is why they are a part of Antioch's larger story, like it or not.
Ok, admittedly, I did find one spot where CZ appears to have possibly censored a couple posts by one person. It looked as if they were able to post below the removals, though. Not sure what the backdrop was.
DeleteI haven't noticed that to be a practice, thankfully.
At any rate, I think all our stories have validity, regardless as to our backgrounds. It's just that, well, each of our stories is apt to show a different facet of the whole.
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ReplyDeletePut your post back Zealot - he didn't even bother to read the why of this blog. And everything said, especially those wanting the opportunity to speak anything not perfectly inline with the party line have been more kind than critical and often the first chance people have been able to speak truth within antioch without being stopped from being promoted to the next level of leadership - almost as if our founding fathers didn't die for the right to say we didn't like some of the tea the Queen was serving. Please continue, we need to know its okay to think for ourselves again Zealot. Whether we are in ACC or out. We need to know its okay to think again. Come on you lurkers, what do ya say?
ReplyDeleteAgreed, Anon. We need to be able to think for ourselves - to truly exercise discernment to the extent we can. That was something I lost at Antioch and had to regain after I left - and even then, I had to leave physically AND mentally / intellectually / theologically.
DeleteI for one think it's worth it to think again. Personal opinion. = )
What saddens me the most about this blog is not the way those who have been hurt by ACC have responded; it is the way [most] people who still consider themselves a part of ACC have responded to them. I see people being quick to place blame on those posting negative comments about ACC, and that is just not the heart of God. I am a member of ACC, I am in leadership in the college ministry, I have read every word posted by Chilled Zealot as well as by commenters on this blog, and I am sobered and humbled by it. If you are currently involved at ACC I offer you this advice - "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."
ReplyDeleteI think there are three responses current members of ACC can take from this - be offended and throw everything you read out of the window, be shocked and frightened and pull back from the church, or embrace it and ask yourself what YOU can do differently. There is no way to know if everything you read here is true or not - I have recognized a few posts by specific people that I know personally, and recognized some specific situations that they mentioned that were twisted to make things sound worse than they really were. That being said, I have also read things that I know to be true, and even in the stories that were twisted, there was a grain of truth. So does that mean I'm going to walk away from this church? Not at all. I have met Jesus in my three years here, and I am completely confident that this is where he has placed me. But I'm also not going to ignore it and pretend that nothing goes wrong at Antioch. The Church [globally] is being conformed to Christ, and as a part of your church [locally], YOU are responsible for walking in that process. I first read this blog in February, and I have taken what I read and asked, "What can I do to make sure that the people I lead aren't hurt in the same way that this person was hurt? What can I do to make sure this situation doesn't repeat itself? Is ____________ really the best way for ministry to be done in this area, or should I break the mold?" What I've seen during that time is that I have had to trust God and depend on him more, rather than depending on Jimmy Seibert, Carl Gulley, or any particular way of doing ministry at Antioch. I believe that I have a more healthy spiritual life because of that AND that I can more confidently consider myself a part of the body of Christ at ACC. Recognizing that my church is not perfect has freed me from perfectionism. I fully believe that Jimmy and the other elders have good hearts and good intentions, but I also believe that they don't always get it right. I've even talked with people above me about a few things that I have seen, and they responded well and have answered my questions (that being said, I cannot say whether or not I would have been met in the same way by my leaders if I weren't a lifegroup leader).
All that to say, if you are reading this blog and are currently a part of Antioch, PLEASE don't respond in anger, and don't respond in fear - respond in humility and help our church to grow closer to Jesus Christ.
To Chilled Zealot and all others who have walked away from Antioch for various reasons, I would like to say this - Thank you for helping me to identify the log in my eye. I would like to apologize for any way that you have been hurt, ignored, and brushed aside by members/leaders at ACC. One thing that I have learned from this blog is that we are a prideful people. Humility is taught on frequently at ACC, and, for the most part, I think people at Antioch are humble on a personal level. However, as a body, I recognize that Antioch is a prideful people, and I repent of that on behalf of my church. I bless you all and pray that God will bring you healing and will provide a church home for you, whether that be back at Antioch or anywhere else.
Part 1
ReplyDeleteMy first experience with Antioch was something we used to call High-Way Church. That was attending Woodway Baptist for the main service, and then dashing across Waco to attend Highland for the college service. This was my Sunday routine for 1992-93. I began attending HBC fully in the fall of 1993, and went on to be a part of LG leadership, Juarez leadership, ATS, overseas outreaches, and other ministries.
My Antioch world fell apart when I finally found "the one", and we entered into a courtship relationship. Courtship was all the rage in the 1990's at Antioch, and dating was for sinful losers. When our relationship collapsed, I was devastated and depressed. It was all my fault and everyone knew about it. I was pushed out of college leadership, and “strongly encouraged” to join a 20s group. I became bitter towards a few leaders in the college ministry, and my participation in all things Antioch dropped dramatcially. The sad part was that it truly WAS my fault. I had traded my god-given abilities to discern & judge; for the methodology of courtship. All the signs were there, but I just didn't want to believe that she and I were not destined to be married.
If you don't know about courtship, I don't really want to waste time explaining it here. You can read all about it in an old ACC favorite called "I kissed dating goodbye". The ideas behind courtship are great, but the mistake is believing in a methodology over principles. People can date without breaking someone's heart... it does happen. People who start out courting can also end up divorced… that also happens. It’s not about the practicals, it’s about the principles.
Anyway, my bad experiences with Antioch were not bad experiences with Antioch. They were bad experiences with some flawed people... who happened to be members of Antioch Community Church. I had a bad experience at the corner store the other day, but I didn't create a blog called "Recovering from Valero".
Part 2
ReplyDeleteAfter some time I became a regular member of ACC again, but I never quite fit into the 20's groups like I had fit into the college ones. Regardless, I was asked to lead an overseas summer trip with 3 other leaders. It was exciting, and I was eager to "get back out there". Early on I had some reservations about our "main" leader, but I trusted the ACC leadership who seemed to fully support her. Once we were overseas, all my initial concerns were confirmed. There were some serious leadership mistakes made, and I did confront the "main" leader about it. Initially it seemed OK, but there was a new layer of complexity added to it all... she confessed her attraction for me. Whoa, that was awkward. So I had to inform her that I wasn't interested. She seemed to take it well, but within a day or two... things got weird. Thankfully, we were able to keep all of this craziness from the team, so most of them were able to enjoy the trip without knowing about any of it. Eventually the rest of the team went home, but I stayed for a few more weeks to explore other areas of that country for possible future church plants. When I returned to Waco, I was met at the airport by the staffer in charge of overseas trips for that summer. He said he had received a very bad report on my behavior from the team leader... especially my behavior towards her. She told him that I "spoke nothing but destruction into her life" during the trip. I am using this quote because I heard these exact same words from more than a dozen people at Antioch. You see, while I was overseas, she came back and started spreading this story about me to... everyone. Even my old ex-girlfriend (the courtship one) asked me about the trip. This leader had run into my ex on a Sunday morning, and even told her the now familiar quote. So after I told the staffer at the airport, the story from my perspective, he seemed puzzled. Then I told him about how she confronted me about her feelings for me, and I had to softly reject her... and he just went, "OOOOOOHHHHH!" This is another direct quote because I had this same reaction from about 7 members of leadership including 3 of the senior leaders. They all knew her, and they also knew me. They heard the "spoke nothing but destruction..." quote about me, and knew something wasn't right. Once I told them about the rejection, they knew her well enough to know what was REALLY going on.
Part 3
ReplyDeleteSo why am I telling you all of this? This situation was very troubling for me. This time I was let down by someone whom the leaders of Antioch had hand-picked for leadership (at least it seemed this way). At the time Antioch was zealous about women in leadership, and I believe this young lady was intended to be one of the hallmark examples. And yet they all knew her well enough to know that she was not above saying false things about someone who had rejected her romantically. I had every reason to be bitter and walk away from Antioch forever. They never rose-up and defended my good name, even though they knew that many of the staff had heard these false claims about me. They did not openly correct her, nor did they ask her to apologize to me. They did tell both she and I that my concerns about her leadership mistakes were correct, and that she had indeed made some very poor leadership choices. However they did not inform the rest of our leadership team, who had all been told (by her) that I was wrong and "speaking nothing but destruction". So why didn't I get angry with Jimmy, Danny, Kevin, etc.? Why didn't I create a similar blog to this one? Simply because I know that church leaders are human and fully capable of making mistakes.
The people in leadership at Antioch are just people. They make mistakes... some big and some small. I remember the days of the "Toronto Blessing", and I thought it was nuts. It seemed weird to me, so I didn't participate in it. I also didn't judge others too harshly because I remember that God once spoke thru a donkey, and that Jesus rubbed spit & mud into a blind man's eyes. I know some folks who received powerful ministry in their lives thru that Canadian kookiness... it just wasn't for me. I remember James Stalnaker too. That was a mistake, but I think you would have a hard time trying to find a church that hasn't had really bad people like that. James was a predator, and he is probably still destroying people's lives to this day. Blaming Antioch for James is like blaming the victim for the rapist... actually that is a really good comparison. Remember that I sat thru all that same training, sermons, etc. I also read Spiritual Authority, but I NEVER heard Jimmy or anyone else teach on authority in such a way as Stalnaker twisted it. James was a predator, and he choose his prey because he knew they were vulnerable in some way. He knew he could twist some teachings and even Bible verses in order to abuse people. If you really knew his victims, then you would know that James used a ton of Bible verses to try and convince them that he was right... so are we to throw out the Bible too?
Part 4
ReplyDeleteThe truth is that Antioch is a church full of people. None of those people are perfect, so it is foolish to believe that all those imperfect people could form a flawless church. I believe that most people, who are hurt/recovering from Antioch, are people who made the mistake of assigning perfection to Antioch and its leadership. I left Antioch a few years ago for work related reasons, and I have been contacted by many a former ACCer. Most of the ones I know who have issues with Antioch, are the same ones who used to be "Jimmy worshipers". Many of the girls are the ones who used to tell me how God told them that they were going to marry Herber or Masterson or James Mark or some other leader. They would tell their friends and get so excited... like it was a done deal! Then they would be brokenhearted and become bitter when those guys married someone else. Whatever the reason, worshiping the leaders of a church is a surefire way to totally miss Jesus. Those people will always let you down, and that is the perspective you should have from the very beginning.
Over the years, Antioch leaders have made some mistakes. Some of those mistakes have directly affected me, and I have had to deal with them. Overall, I remain thankful for the lessons learned while I was a member... some through sermons and some through mistakes.
Part 1
ReplyDeleteSo I just found this. I've been, eh, "recovering", for lack of a better term, from my time at ACC. Due to the course God has taken me on in life, I've been around the country, and therefor been around the church block a bit and have assimilated well into churches large and small, until ACC.
To the gracious Anon (who talked about removing specks and planks), thank you. I know there are wonderful people at ACC, and I'm glad they're there, and I hope you and others are better able to do what I could not.
To the Anon in the Families Zone -- all zones are very different. The Families Zone is much more grounded, in part because more people have been places other than ACC, and in part because they have real responsibilities. (Sorry college students, going to school, leading LG, and going on mission trips is greatly devoid of real-life experience. But that's OKAY, it's where you are in life and you should enjoy it to the fullest.)
To the Anon who is greatly angered by this blog, well... sometimes the truth hurts. As I said, there are WONDERFUL people at ACC. But there is also some funny business. For instance, when I told one of the pastor's wives the things I was being told as I was getting ready to move, she literally said, "It sounds like you're part of a cult!" Spiritual pride is a big issue. The only reason I know this is because I received teaching about it, have been aware of it and been sure to guard against it, and after coming to ACC, I very quickly felt spiritual pride rise up in me. "Well MY home church did the same thing. You're not the ONLY church who thinks missions is important!" And I killed it as quickly as possible. This isn't a competition. This is a family. ACC is part of the church family of Waco, which is part of family of Texas, part of the US, part of the global family of God. We all need to see the most "off" Christian as a valued brother/sister in Christ.
ShooterTX, I've heard many stories like that, as well as personal attacks and verbally ripping people to shreds. It's very sad. I was once in a group of about 20 people (well, in ATS), and one of the leaders made horrible accusations publicly against someone there, accusing him of intentionally mocking someone and making sport out of that person's pain. But he'd just asked a very innocent question. I had NEVER seen such behavior from someone in leadership before. And where I grew up spiritually, people apologize for far less, but this leader never apologized. It was shocking to me. It's not good to put people into leadership when they're too young spiritually (whether they're 20 or 60). It's not just hurtful to the people under the leader, it's detrimental to the leader as well.
DeleteAnyway, this blog has been helpful for me (even though no one has posted in a year, haha). My heart is not to bash ACC. But it did have a large impact in my life, creating a stark difference in me before I came to when I left. It's not just ACC, because I'm human and have weaknesses as well. But ACC seems to feed certain weaknesses -- like mine. And certain people, certain personalities, get trampled, like me.
One thing that has been helpful to see is that I'm not the only one who thought relationships were weird and forced. Every time God has had me leave a community of believers I've cried for days and intermittently for weeks and months and missed them horribly... except for when I left ACC. And that's really sad to me. I was there for over 6 years.
I was so afraid of people when I moved here (did I have enough to offer for them to be friends with me? Were they saved? Did I need to get them saved? What did I need to say? What did I need to do? Did I need to disciple them?) that I really didn't talk to anyone for a year. I'm the kind of person who meets people wherever I go -- I have friends EVERYWHERE, and not just because I've moved around the country. I just naturally connect with people wherever I go. So I read what ChilledZealot has to say about relationships there and my response is, "Oh yeah... that's why I'm dealing with this issue in relationships. But that's not what's true about me," and I can deal with it and move on. Sometimes you just need to process. Sometimes you need to throw up before you start feeling better. And before you can start really forgiving. I think we need to remember, the first step toward forgiveness is oven raging against what was done and how we were hurt. Then you actually know all the implications of the thing you're forgiving. I think I've gotten most of the puking out of me, and done a lot of forgiving. :) But, you know, sometimes things come up.
It has been some time since I last posted. I hope someone reads this, and remembers. 4 years ago, on the Anniversary of Roe V. Wade, a pastor stood up before a very young congregation,and celebrated the election of America's first Black President. Today, that table holding, card carrying member of Care Net, may have to pay for abortive services through the health insurance provided for employees of his Church. He announced that the Church was only at 13% African American with the goal of 20%, for you need 20% to reach a people group. For every 1000 Black children born, 469 are aborted (CDC). That is 28%. This brilliant Pastor has inadvertently sacrificed 28%+ to save 7%. General mark Clark ordered Japanese American troops to save 200 members of the 36th Division in WWII. 400 Japanese American soldiers were lost to save those men. History repeats all in the name of pulling the lost from the pit. I think there is a better way.
ReplyDeleteThat's just not true.
DeleteI cannot believe I’m actually going to give this blog any of my time. Over the years a few things about it have increasingly bothered me, so I’m going to dedicate a brief about of time and space to expose the weakness of this blog. I am a Baylor professor and a ten year Antioch Community Church member. My motive is to alleviate the fears of people whose family members attend this church.
ReplyDeleteFirst, anytime any group calls its members to radical obedience, it’s going to be dubbed cult-like. What Antioch does well, and what other churches could stand to learn, is that it asks the congregation to radically, wholly, and completely be obedient to scripture and to what the Lord is speaking. The emphasis placed on spiritual obedience and authority is twofold. First, this church wants to bring God glory in all that it does. Second, this church wants people to experience God’s best, His absolute holiness all the days of their life. Really, the relationship between church and body is not much different than that of father and child. And if you have a sound theological understanding of New Testament churches, you know how biblical this model is.
Second, let us consider some of the people associated with this church, and then ask ourselves whether or not we trust their character. World-renowned speakers such as Max Lucado, Christine Cain, Floyd McClung, and even President of Baylor, Judge Ken Starr, have all graced Antioch’s pulpit. The children of respectable Christian leaders like Max Lucado, Steven Curtis Chapman, and Beth Moore, have attended ACC. Popular Christian artists like Kari Jobe, Shane and Shane, Phil Whickham, and even Chris Tomlin have relationships here. It’s difficult to believe that all of these respected, influential Christian leaders were duped by ACC.
Third, why has little been said about how much this church does for the Waco community and the world? The leadership intentionally planted in the most crime ridden part of Waco. They built homes for themselves and community members. Since their establishment, the crime rate has exponentially decreased. If I am not mistaken, 10% of all the church’s tithe goes directly into the Waco community. For instance, when Waco isd cut school breakfast from their budget, ACC picked up the tab. And to what world disaster has ACC not humbly offered their services? They have built villages in Sri Lanka and Haiti; they organized a medical and supply team after Katrina hit New Orleans, and they did the same for Japan. Every ACC church plant, with which I am familiar, walks out in similar values.
Fourth, and lastly, we would be foolish not to ask: who is espousing such hurtful rhetoric? The truth is, we don’t know. This blogger remains anonymous. I would imagine it’s difficult for any discerning person to trust this male(?) female(? )who hides behind anonymity. What clout, what right does this person have to attack such a church so highly esteemed by tens of thousands? Really, friends, we should take little credence in this blog. Instead, I find myself extending grace to someone who had an unfortunate experience and allowed him or herself to get bitter rather than better.
With all due respect, nobody said churches don't serve a useful productive purpose. They do.
DeleteServing community is any church's very necessary greasing-of-the-wheel.
Disaster response? They'd better! Otherwise they wouldn't be part of the larger community's partnerships on paper (also very necessary) that must be documented for grants, tax credits, 501(c)(3) status, and so on and so forth. Billy Graham's outfit, now Franklin Graham, is a USAID partner. Which means millions of dollars. The Shoebox program? Millions of dollars of support. But wait. Isn't it all volunteer? Volunteer labor, donated supplies, donated shipping, privately-owned warehouses. So what expense, exactly, is involved that they need cash for?
The next time people complain about the federal deficit, look to churches.
It's not difficult at all for me to read words, absorb the message, and evaluate for myself. Whether or not I know the identity or gender of the speaker has no bearing on the content. 'Cause I can read.
An example would be you, professor. I don't know who you are, but I was, in fact, able to clearly and easily discern what you meant and process it meaningfully. The fact of the words written here in response are evidence thereof.
I find myself extending grace (attempting to, anyway) to someone who seems a tad bitter themselves. A professor, no less, who discredits the value of the written word.
I daresay you've never met Isaiah and nobody knows whether he was the actual author - it may have been an 'anonymous' who penned that bit of the Bible - but that is no barrier for you to attempt to squeeze every possible morsel of meaning from "one of the most wild and disorderly compositions ever put together."
"It has neither beginning, middle, nor end; and, except a short historical part, and a few sketches of history in the first two or three chapters, is one continued incoherent, bombastical rant, full of extravagant metaphor, without application, and destitute of meaning; a school-boy would scarcely have been excusable for writing such stuff; it is (at least in translation) that kind of composition and false taste that is properly called prose run mad.” ― Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason
Try not to be so mean-spirited, would'ja? It's gonna make you old.
Okay I am completely lost and confused!!!!! I am a second year Antioch member and I'm strongly debating whether to continue..I am afraid of immersing myself and later getting hurt. At this point I know that I'm getting really dependent on my life group, dwelling place, EMP and all other Antioch events....I'm afraid that wen I graduate I too will be hurt and be a "clone" from Antioch. Honestly I have seen changes in my believes since I've been attending Antioch. I have questioned MANY things that I believe in. I see myself slowly conforming to a typical Antioch member. I can't fully explain. I'm just lost n confused. Please respond!!!!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous from 9/1/12... I totally understand your concerns. Read my story in this blog, titled "Someone Else's Story.." I can't agree with some of the commenters after, but they too may give you multiple points of view on how you are feeling. Feel free to contact me personally as well. Hope you find your path, and that you remember and hold on to who you are. resplendentprism@hotmail.com
ReplyDeleteHey anonymous professor. What is your name? Your eloquence is impressive, but I find your arguments lacking because you are unwilling to stand up for this church in the way that you say others have done. Give yourself another ten years, get on staff, become a cog, and your ideals will be shattered. I wish this were inflammatory, bitter speak, but I am not one ounce of bitter. I do, however, wish to offer help to those who have struggled with losing themselves in ACC. I did, for a time. Perhaps your mind and will are sharper, stronger than the average bear, you may be an exception. However, I urge you to look deeper, or at least be willing to hear about others' stories. Good luck to you. I hope you keep your faith and personal identity. You have a shot as a mentally mature, fully formed adult. I cannot say the same for young people struggling to find their identities.
ReplyDeleteI was a member of HBC's college group "pre-ACC" days for almost 10 years, did ATS and ended up being a missionary with AMI for a couple of years. All I know is that I have friends that had similar experiences and for some reason people leave with very few ripples. Just for once it would be nice to see someone go out with a "bang." Once you "leave" and pursue a life outside of full time ministry, most of the friendships you made along the way disappear. I even used to babysit Jimmy and Laura's kids and numerous others that I doubt would even recognize me if they saw my on the street!
ReplyDeleteMy experience is that many of my fellow college students worshiped the ground that Jimmy walked on. It's not necessarily Jimmy's fault, he is one charismatic preacher! Among the leaders and in my pier groups it became increasingly harder to distinguish between what Jimmy said and what God was saying. My zone pastor and my fellow lifegroup leaders were my entirety as far as friends went and I GAVE up so much time to be in leadership. My grades suffered and I had no life other than attending class and serving at church.
I'm facebook friends now with many of the former zone pastors and leaders and find it interesting that they give me very little time of day. Many even live nearby and I never see any of them --- wasn't even invited to the "reunion" that was recently hosted in our current town (not Waco). The groups were cliques back then and still seem to be to this day.
Many have questioned how this blog builds the kingdom of God. I'm not sure that everything under the sun has to actively build the kingdom of God to be valid. It has given me a place to know that I am not alone in the feelings that I am feeling and God cares about my feelings, so I think He is fine with me posting here.
I learned a lot during my time with this church. Many good things, and some bad ones. I'm so glad that God didn't grant my wish back in those days to marry someone who had attended HBC back in the day. When I tell my husband about the dating series and some of the things that were taught he just laughs. Our relationship isn't perfect and we didn't sit down to "DTR" (define the relationship) or follow the timeline that Jimmy set out, but I think our marriage has a fantastic chance of lasting regardless!
I'm very torn about this church. I ended up feeling like it was a huge popularity contest to see who could pray in tongues the loudest, attend the most early morning prayers, and write the best worship songs. Don't even get me started on what it felt like to NOT be a Baylor Landing tenant. Might as well have been a hippy commune that made the rest of us non-Baylor Landing dwellers feel like chopped liver and completely unwelcome. Ugh.
Sorry, not a very eloquent or well defined argument as to why ACC is cultish, but I too saw some inner workings and I'm so thankful I got out when I did.
If you are LGBT , I would leave Antoch and join the Episcopal Church. They tried to exorcise my homosexuality and make me more manly. Coming out as gay made me more of a man than ACC culture makes men out to be, wild at heart - when are we going to give up the idols of patriachy and homophobia , but learnt that Jesus loves us regardless of our sexual orientation or gender...
ReplyDeleteNot to put anyone on the spot, but do any of the old-timers know of three very very zealous guys; two of them Baylor students between 2004 and 2008, that went off and created their own church? It seems to run on the same model. But exponentially more restrictive, isolated and committed.
ReplyDeleteAccording to one of the guy's wives, after eight-hour prayer sessions "tears and mucus covers the floors."
Okay, not making that up. Read it here, if you must:
http://faith.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?pid=4105#p4105
Just trying to understand...
Hi 10/27/14 I think you mean this one?
Deletehttp://mosaic-seattle.org/
I actually just left ACC/MCC
Church of Wells, maybe.
DeleteDoesn't really sound like Mosaic-Seattle, I don't think.
Sorry, could not read the forum post - could not get through to that site.
DeleteLynda and other bloggers. I have a daughter that is heavily involved in Antioch. I am trying to learn as much as I can about Antioch. I want to learn as much as I can so that I can try to help her to see the problems with Antioch.
ReplyDeleteLinda Gruen you seem to be very knowledgeable about the church. I would greatly appreciate it if we could communicate.
Paul
Just emailed you chilledzealot@gmail.com
ReplyDelete